The children of Windrush

[Gramsci]

Don’t see the problem. People were/are either permanently in the UK legally or not. Those that were British when they arrived should obviously be allowed to stay with all the benefit of legal residents. But giving blanket amnesties to all those who are not legally here simply because they have evaded the authorities for a few years is wrong. By all means judge individual cases on their merits, but a blanket approval lessens the number of places for those the country desperately needs (eg, doctors)...

So you are for putting Columbians back on next flight to Columbia?

 

[patman post]

So you are for putting Columbians back on next flight to Columbia?

If they are discovered to be in the UK illegally, it should certainly be considered, unless they can make a good case for staying...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In a country of 60 million the numbers involved in these disgusting targets are really very small in terms of making any meaningful difference to the rest of us. A few thousand people a year are fucked over, no doubt at considerable expense, for what?

 

[patman post]

In a country of 60 million the numbers involved in these disgusting targets are really very small in terms of making any meaningful difference to the rest of us. A few thousand people a year are fucked over, no doubt at considerable expense, for what?

I guess that’s an argument that could be made against prosecuting any number of illegal activities. But I doubt it’s one the majority of law abiding citizens would agree with...

 

[killer b]

You could make it more clear.

I am coming from standpoint of living in Brixton, working with East Europeans and having a partner who is from another EU country.

I live this. Im not particularly interested in polls or abstract discussion on this matter of immigration. It's directly part of my life and personal experience.

Which is why I have taken time off Brixton forum and posted here.

Immigration is part of the lives and lived experiences of people who don't live in Brixton too. It isn't some kind of top trumps game.

 

[Gramsci]

Immigration is part of the lives and lived experiences of people who don't live in Brixton too. It isn't some kind of top trumps game.

I'm well aware of that. I don't originally come from Brixton.

As this thread is about Windrush and its become about immigration my life, accidentally, means I have a lot of personal experience of it.

 

[Gramsci]

I guess that’s an argument that could be made against prosecuting any number of illegal activities. But I doubt it’s one the majority of law abiding citizens would agree with...

The difference being that being an illegal immigrant , working, not relying on state benefits in the minds of a lot of people not the same as breaking the law by being a house burgler for example.

Being an illegal immigrant isn't actually affecting negatively on one's personal space or a threat to one's belongings.

In actual fact the illegal immigrant might be the person whose spent the night cleaning one's office.

 

[killer b]

Why do you keep telling me you have lots of experience of immigration? I heard you first time.

You say you aren't particularly interested in discussing the things I'm posting about. That's fine. Don't reply to them.

 

[Gramsci]

If they are discovered to be in the UK illegally, it should certainly be considered, unless they can make a good case for staying...

Well at least you are honest and logical in your opinion.

I as is clear would not agree.

What I can't stand is wishy washy liberalism.

 

[patman post]

The difference being that being an illegal immigrant , working, not relying on state benefits in the minds of a lot of people not the same as breaking the law by being a house burgler for example.

Being an illegal immigrant isn't actually affecting negatively on one's personal space or a threat to one's belongings.

In actual fact the illegal immigrant might be the person whose spent the night cleaning one's office.

Strange argument. Why can’t office cleaners be legit residents? That would be more jobs for them and less need to thieve, more living accommodation available, etc. Or are you saying locals won’t/cannot do the jobs...?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I guess that’s an argument that could be made against prosecuting any number of illegal activities. But I doubt it’s one the majority of law abiding citizens would agree with...

I don't class not having certain papers as an 'illegal activity'.

 

[existentialist]

If they are discovered to be in the UK illegally, it should certainly be considered, unless they can make a good case for staying...

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The difference being that being an illegal immigrant , working, not relying on state benefits in the minds of a lot of people not the same as breaking the law by being a house burgler for example.

Being an illegal immigrant isn't actually affecting negatively on one's personal space or a threat to one's belongings.

In actual fact the illegal immigrant might be the person whose spent the night cleaning one's office.

this is partly the reason why racists prefer to refer to "illegals" - dehumanising them altogether.

 

[Gramsci]

Strange argument. Why can’t office cleaners be legit residents? That would be more jobs for them and less need to thieve, more living accommodation available, etc. Or are you saying locals won’t/cannot do the jobs...?

It's not my argument. Im just relaying how it works in practice. Why can't ( Columbian) office cleaners be legit is a good question.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Trigger warning: conservative viewpoints.

Two of many under-remarked aspects of this nasty episode are the total inversion of British justice (innocent till proven guilty) and the counter-Christian nature of the "hostile environment" - you know, the Christianity that the right wing constantly moan is going down the tubes.

Sadly, plenty of people will be happy enough with what has happened. They will resent what's happening and be brewing up their backlash, not least when the compo starts to get processed. Such people despise British traditions while proclaiming same, and are rarely called out.

 

[eatmorecheese]

Strange argument. Why can’t office cleaners be legit residents? That would be more jobs for them and less need to thieve, more living accommodation available, etc. Or are you saying locals won’t/cannot do the jobs...?

I see you.

 

[Thimble Queen]

racisms certainly a part of it, but it's a lot more complex than that - why are Romanians so much more poorly regarded than the Polish? Indians score higher than Pakistanis? I think there's a whole load of cultural & economic factors behind those figures. (and some racism)

There's a class element to it as well with the Indians and Pakistani... Indians living in the UK are more likely to be mc where are Pakistani who have come to love in the UK are more likely to be rural poor... which knocks on to loads of other stuff like english language ability, educational attainment (not because rural poor at thick but because of being able to fit more readily into mc institutions such as school). I'm more talking it out than anything... I'm sure you know all this already.

 

[patman post]

I don't class not having certain papers as an 'illegal activity'.

Some people might consider driving without insurance or owning firearms in the same way. Doesn’t make them correct though...

 

[patman post]

It's not my argument. Im just relaying how it works in practice. Why can't ( Columbian) office cleaners be legit is a good question.

As far as I am aware people from anywhere can be office cleaners provided they obtain the required resident and working permissions...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Some people might consider driving without insurance or owning firearms in the same way. Doesn’t make them correct though...

Some people might think you're a disingenuous cunt for pretending not to see the difference. Fuck off.

 

[DotCommunist]

The Labour front bench response is a typical socialist attempt at damage limitation — when confronted with being caught out doing nothing to stop antisemitism in the party, hit out with any counter accusation with supporting stories to smear and deflect, no matter that in this case the landing cards were and are irrelevant...

You're in good company with this line, Gove's come out and said the same. The pob faced cunt

 

[DotCommunist]

another example of that habit politicos have of accusing the other person of playing politics over an important issue. Should be instantly put to death for mouthing that hypocrisy- its professional politicians, we know they live and breath the game so calling 'playing politics' is 1st class bullshit, it is in fact a political play itself

 

[elbows]

Rudds claim that she didnt know about the targets should be easy to sort. Well its a bit of a hostile environment for her at the moment but all she needs to do is submit a range of documented proof that she didnt know about the targets. However in order to be rigorous and prevent abuse of this system, she will need to submit separate proof about her lack of knowledge about her own departments targets for every week that these targets remained in place. This seems completely reasonable and fair and if she cannot comply then she will just have to suffer the consequences in order to deter others from demonstrating the same disregard for the customs of our nation in future.

 

[existentialist]

You're in good company with this line, Gove's come out and said the same. The pob faced cunt

Yeah, I reckon Pob is only trying to claim Labour is using the Tory Windrush clusterfuck to distract attention from their problems as a way of distracting from, er, the Tory Windrush clusterfuck

Still, at least it's distracting everyone from Grenfell, Brexit, and all the other Tory clusterfucks, eh?

 

[GarveyLives]

Returning to the subject matter of the thread, in one of the earliest cases to be widely reported in the 'Windrush General' scandal' 63-year old Sylvester Marshall, who the Guardian had been calling 'Albert Thompson' at his request as he pursued his immigration application with the Home Office and is the Windrush victim who was denied NHS cancer care, has been given permanent right to remain in the UK after a battle with the Home Office that has absorbed nine years of his life. He has lived in the UK for 44 years.

​

Windrush cancer patient has UK residency status confirmed (click for more)

 

[Slo-mo]

Good news, but as with the other cases, it should never have come to this...

 

[SpookyFrank]

Rudds claim that she didnt know about the targets should be easy to sort. Well its a bit of a hostile environment for her at the moment but all she needs to do is submit a range of documented proof that she didnt know about the targets. However in order to be rigorous and prevent abuse of this system, she will need to submit separate proof about her lack of knowledge about her own departments targets for every week that these targets remained in place. This seems completely reasonable and fair and if she cannot comply then she will just have to suffer the consequences in order to deter others from demonstrating the same disregard for the customs of our nation in future.

Her defence is basically that she wasn't doing her job properly and didn't know what her own department was doing. So if it works and she's off the hook for the targets debacle she should get fired for incompetence instead. But then if incompetence was grounds for dismissal from May's cabinet it would consist entirely of Larry the cat and the woman who brings the tea trolley.

 

[existentialist]

Her defence is basically that she wasn't doing her job properly and didn't know what her own department was doing. So if it works and she's off the hook for the targets debacle she should get fired for incompetence instead. But then if incompetence was grounds for dismissal from May's cabinet it would consist entirely of Larry the cat and the woman who brings the tea trolley.

...and I've heard she sometimes runs out of Digestives.

 

[SpookyFrank]

...and I've heard she sometimes runs out of Digestives.

I bet tories love digestives, sick fuckers that they are

 

[Gramsci]

I felt I didn't know enough about history of immigration controls. Found this short article by Paul Foot.

It's useful as short history. Its written from his perspective as a revolutionary socialist. He opposed any immigration controls.

Paul Foot: Immigration and the British Labour Movement (Autumn 1965)

What I learnt from it is the following:

• Immigration controls are recent. In 19c the consensus was that Free Trade also meant free movement. The Liberal bourgeois ideologically opposed controls. They were opposing last vestiges of feudalism and this was a liberty issue. The first time immigration controls were attempted to be brought in the Liberal bourgeois fiercely opposed them.

• The early socialist movement, whether reformist or revolutionary all opposed immigration controls on basis that all workers should be treated the same. Socialist Internationalism was the norm.

• So up to early 20c it was perfectly normal for a range of political groups to oppose immigration controls.

• Foot doesn't shy away from discussing opposition to immigrants in working class communities.

• The first group targeted by politicians were Jews in early 1900s Who had come here fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe. This involved a lot of racist attitudes.

• Specifically on Commonwealth immigration post war he has good section. Initially all political sides regarded right of Commonwealth subjects to come here as unquestionable. This was after all the "Mother" country.

• Foot points out that commited campaigning using race is highly effective. He said the traditional Marxist idea that development of capitalism inevitably throws workers together and leads to all workers uniting doesn't seem to apply when race is used in campaigning.

• Foot is highly critical of Labour party. Moving from its early days of opposition to immigration control due to it being Internationalist, to supporting Commonwealth immigration using the rhetoric of a maternalist British Empire. Then capitulating to right and supporting immigration controls. Just trying to make them little less nasty than Tories.

• The article is about Labour movement mainly but Tories come out of it as the party that legitimised racial opposition to migrants.

Its an old article but shows the, to my surprise, short history of government immigration control. How the "common sense" on migration moved from opposition to controls to one where the discussion is about how many to let in. He also shows imo race and immigration are linked.

He puts the problem forward that anti immigration/ racist campaigning is highly effective. Post this article see the rise of UKIP pre the referendum. So he's been proved right.

To add he puts forward arguments for opposing immigration controls. It wouldn't mean unmanageable numbers of people coming here. He uses figures of Commonwealth migration to show it went up and down in relation to ups and downs in economy.