The children of Windrush

[Gramsci]

I'm not sure that it does show that, tbh.

If anything this is more of a case of the Coalition (and subsequently Tory) government doing their usual trick of wanting to be seen to be tough on a thing but not be willing to pay for it, which in this case led to them giving parameters to (and incentivizing) civil servants that resulted in them removing / attempting to remove / penalizing people based on how cheap or easy it would be get them removed rather than whether they should actually be targetted for removal. This has led to the absurd and incredibly offensive situation where they have been deliberately going after the elderly, the people who have worked all their lives over here - basically peoples nans, or their favourite uncles / neighbours.

Obviously if there is a mood against immigration in the country then its against the hypothetical "bad migrant" - the one that commits crime, dishonestly claims benefits etc etc - but under this scandal they are the least likely people to be targetted for removal by the Home Office. People seem to have cottoned on to the reality of the situation and it offends almost everyone (edit) because the people who have no problem with migration find it confirms everything they think the Government does, whilst the people who have problems with migrants recognize this targets the "deserving" whilst leaves the "undeserving" alone.

But this shows the problem when people ( and I see it here) say they arent racist or anti immigration don't like the consequences.

If one is to have an immigration policy its going to mean that ordinary decent people will be deported or persuaded to leave "voluntarily".

I oppose all immigration controls. Some posters here regard that as extreme.

Why cant we have reasonable discussion on immigration they say.

Its that people want immigration controls but the avert there eyes to what that means.

Only a few will be criminals. Most illegal immigrants want to work.

If one wants immigration controls "decent" people will be deported.

 

[Gramsci]

The immigration authorities have also for years been going after the South American community. Hard working "low hanging fruit". I know from personal experience. In London lots of Columbians and Brazilians ( not so many Brazilians now as immigration authorities raid there workplaces).

These are , and I know from personal experience, hard working decent visa overstayers / illegal immigrants looking for a better life in UK.

So following the logic of hard working decent people who aren't scroungers or criminals they should be given right to stay here?

 

[Gramsci]

Exhibition in London

Windrush: Portrait of a Generation - Oxo Tower

 

[teuchter]

Amongst people who would not be keen on a fully open border policy, which as far as I can make out is most people in the UK, I don't think worries about "criminals" are the main thing. I think people would be worried about sheer numbers and the effects of that on infrastructure as well as culturally. Are worries about overwhelming numbers of people arriving in the UK unfounded? I don't think anyone's really got a clue what would actually happen.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Amongst people who would not be keen on a fully open border policy, which as far as I can make out is most people in the UK, I don't think worries about "criminals" are the main thing. I think people would be worried about sheer numbers and the effects of that on infrastructure as well as culturally. Are worries about overwhelming numbers of people arriving in the UK unfounded? I don't think anyone's really got a clue what would actually happen.

A unilateral open border policy with an otherwise unchanged neoliberal capitalist society would cause chaos. I believe in removal of borders via the abolition of nation states.

 

[killer b]

I think people do have a clue what would happen - it's a sort of article of faith in modern politics that much antipathy for immigration is driven by the choice taken by the Blair government not to have any transitional controls on immigration when the eastern & central European countries joined the EU in 2004, expecting only a small number of immigrants - the actual number was 10 times what they projected.

Personally I'm not so sure it's that simple an equation, but this is the example anyone would look back to when considering the effects of opening borders.

 

[killer b]

The problem the Tories have is that most people like the idea of less immigration in the abstract: and they (like all parties to some degree) have stoked and exploited this for electoral gain. Windrush shows that most people really don't like the reality of less immigration, which is harsh immigration controls - inevitably resulting in their neighbour or co-worker or aunt being deported.

So now here we are.

further to this... Yougov have some polling out today which shows the public overwhelmingly support the policy which caused the Windrush scandal - which is where we get when the public discussion about it has been almost exclusively centred around it being poorly implemented policy, rather than the policy itself being responsible for the outrage.

YouGov | Where the public stands on immigration

 

[Pickman's model]

If one wants immigration controls "decent" people will be deported.

i'm planning emigration controls for the penal colony on south georgia. no former person will be allowed to leave. i anticipate much gnashing of teeth from the former ministers who will be resident there.

 

[teuchter]

further to this... Yougov have some polling out today which shows the public overwhelmingly support the policy which caused the Windrush scandal - which is where we get when the public discussion about it has been almost exclusively centred around it being poorly implemented policy, rather than the policy itself being responsible for the outrage.

YouGov | Where the public stands on immigration

Not sure it's quite as straightforward as that as surely there are two separate elements to the policy: one relating to when or how often people are asked to show their documents, and another relating to how difficult/expensive it is to obtain those documents that prove a "right to live in Britain".

It's the second of those two elements that is most specifically related to the Windrush Scandal, isn't it? In other words not what that survey question was asking.

 

[teuchter]

For me the most interesting part of that survey is where attitudes are broken down according to country of origin of immigrants. Evidence of fundamental racism within the UK population? Also interesting that in 2017 they didn't think it necessary to include Jamaica as one of those countries of origin in the survey questions.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Exhibition in London

Windrush: Portrait of a Generation - Oxo Tower

interesting picture from there.

 

[friendofdorothy]

further to this... Yougov have some polling out today which shows the public overwhelmingly support the policy which caused the Windrush scandal - which is where we get when the public discussion about it has been almost exclusively centred around it being poorly implemented policy, rather than the policy itself being responsible for the outrage.

YouGov | Where the public stands on immigration

The amount of stuff needed to open bank accounts is ridiculous. I've been asked for ID when opening a new savings account with my own bank - 'its to prevent money laundering' - 'but I've been a customer with you for over 20years, you must know who I am by now'.
A british friend who has lived in Amsterdam for 30 years is having terrible problems using her HSBC account here (that she has had with them since it was the Midland) they want her to produce all sorts of documents 'to prevent money laundering' or maybe it was to prove her right to live here, as if being born in Accrington wasn't bad enough.

How come if banks are so awkwardly fussy they haven't actually prevented criminals and oligarchs from actally using London for their money laundering.

 

[teqniq]

HSBC? Oh the irony.

 

[killer b]

Not sure it's quite as straightforward as that as surely there are two separate elements to the policy: one relating to when or how often people are asked to show their documents, and another relating to how difficult/expensive it is to obtain those documents that prove a "right to live in Britain".

It's the second of those two elements that is most specifically related to the Windrush Scandal, isn't it? In other words not what that survey question was asking.

I think most people's response to this isn't based on the existence or otherwise of documents - it's based on fairness. While the Windrush generation are British citizens who's right to be here is undeniable, most people would also support the right of other people in a similar position but without the same rights too. IMO the trigger for sympathy isn't a technical immigration rule that they or their parents arrived before 1971 from a former colony, but the fact that they have lived and worked here for decades, paid taxes, become part of the community, laid down roots.

Which is why the fix they are trying to work out at the moment for Windrush generation migrants only is just not going to work, because your neighbour of 30 years and your co-worker and your ageing aunt are still getting deported as they or their family arrived a year too late.

So by not dealing with it properly, by pretending it's simply a case of overzealous home office administrators and unfortunately lost documents and not the policy itself that's unworkable, they've simply prolonged the clusterfuck this has created.

 

[killer b]

For me the most interesting part of that survey is where attitudes are broken down according to country of origin of immigrants. Evidence of fundamental racism within the UK population? Also interesting that in 2017 they didn't think it necessary to include Jamaica as one of those countries of origin in the survey questions.

View attachment 133810 View attachment 133811

racisms certainly a part of it, but it's a lot more complex than that - why are Romanians so much more poorly regarded than the Polish? Indians score higher than Pakistanis? I think there's a whole load of cultural & economic factors behind those figures. (and some racism)

 

[killer b]

Anyway. By all rights Rudd is toast.

Amber Rudd was told about migrant removal targets, leak reveals

 

[Threshers_Flail]

Anyway. By all rights Rudd is toast.

Amber Rudd was told about migrant removal targets, leak reveals

Fingers crossed. Not that it would change anything but the ability of cabinet members in the last few years to avoid the chop over what were once sackable offences really denies us the rare opportunity of a bit of schadenfreude.

 

[killer b]

I don't think this is something that can be brushed off. I can't see her lasting the weekend. Maybe even the day.

Michael Gove to the home office then.

 

[teqniq]

Fingers crossed. Not that it would change anything but the ability of cabinet members in the last few years to avoid the chop over what were once sackable offences really denies us the rare opportunity of a bit of schadenfreude.

It has gone beyond a constant source of amazement to me into a kind of weary numbness.

 

[RainbowTown]

Resign or kick her out of office. Her position is totally untenable.

 

[teqniq]

As has already been said doesn't her going put May in a precarious position?

 

[killer b]

As has already been said doesn't her going put May in a precarious position?

if She resigns now (I think she most likely will) it will be over lying to parliament rather than anything to do with the administration of theresa may's home office policy. So less damaging to May (Although it's still a headache)

 

[belboid]

racisms certainly a part of it, but it's a lot more complex than that - why are Romanians so much more poorly regarded than the Polish? Indians score higher than Pakistanis? I think there's a whole load of cultural & economic factors behind those figures. (and some racism)

Racism is probably a pretty big part of both of those. Indians are much less likely to be evil muslims, and Poles are much less likely to be gypsies.

 

[ddraig]

Linton Kwesi Johnson: ‘It was a myth that immigrants didn’t want to fit into British society. We weren’t allowed’

by LKJ

“But, right now, we are living through a time of reaction; the rise of Conservative populism. And some things simply won’t go away. I’m sure I’ll be crucified for saying this, but I believe that racism is very much part of the cultural DNA of this country, and most probably has been so from imperial times. And, in spite of the progress that we have made, it’s there. It is something we have to contend with in our everyday lives.”

 

[Gramsci]

Not sure it's quite as straightforward as that as surely there are two separate elements to the policy: one relating to when or how often people are asked to show their documents, and another relating to how difficult/expensive it is to obtain those documents that prove a "right to live in Britain".

It's the second of those two elements that is most specifically related to the Windrush Scandal, isn't it? In other words not what that survey question was asking.

Have you actually talked to Black British people in Brixton about this?

 

[Gramsci]

I think most people's response to this isn't based on the existence or otherwise of documents - it's based on fairness. While the Windrush generation are British citizens who's right to be here is undeniable, most people would also support the right of other people in a similar position but without the same rights too. IMO the trigger for sympathy isn't a technical immigration rule that they or their parents arrived before 1971 from a former colony, but the fact that they have lived and worked here for decades, paid taxes, become part of the community, laid down roots.

Which is why the fix they are trying to work out at the moment for Windrush generation migrants only is just not going to work, because your neighbour of 30 years and your co-worker and your ageing aunt are still getting deported as they or their family arrived a year too late.

So by not dealing with it properly, by pretending it's simply a case of overzealous home office administrators and unfortunately lost documents and not the policy itself that's unworkable, they've simply prolonged the clusterfuck this has created.

But as I have been intimating the "fairness" argument should then apply to other groups.

Such as Latin Americans. In London they do the night time cleaning of offices for example. Where I am now in London there is a lot of Columbians.


I've known Latin Americans here. And lets say there immigration status is often borderline.

So how long should they work here with lack of proper visa for them to come under "fairness" concept?

What you appear to suggest is that an "illegal" immigrant if they manage to avoid the immigration authorities and work hard should be allowed to stay in UK on some kind of policy on "fairness".

Sorry but that is not how immigration controls work.

Immigration controls are about limiting number of people allowed to settle permanently in a country. You could work hard but once your visa runs out off you go.

A system of points based immigration for example is about what is needed for the economy. As decided by government. Once you aren't needed your right to stay is not renewed.

Immigration controls aren't about some kind of moral reward for working hard.

It's not about some wishy washy concept of fairness.

 

[killer b]

You know I'm not talking about my own position there don't you?

 

[Gramsci]

racisms certainly a part of it, but it's a lot more complex than that - why are Romanians so much more poorly regarded than the Polish? Indians score higher than Pakistanis? I think there's a whole load of cultural & economic factors behind those figures. (and some racism)

I've worked with Romanians and know one as she used to work in coffee bar I used. They are ordinary decent people. Who come from a country that was shafted with fall of communism. A few became wealthy. Ordinary Romanians lost out.

Daily hate Mail has done a good job on whipping up anti Romanian/ East European prejudice.

 

[patman post]

I think most people's response to this isn't based on the existence or otherwise of documents - it's based on fairness. While the Windrush generation are British citizens who's right to be here is undeniable, most people would also support the right of other people in a similar position but without the same rights too. IMO the trigger for sympathy isn't a technical immigration rule that they or their parents arrived before 1971 from a former colony, but the fact that they have lived and worked here for decades, paid taxes, become part of the community, laid down roots.

Which is why the fix they are trying to work out at the moment for Windrush generation migrants only is just not going to work, because your neighbour of 30 years and your co-worker and your ageing aunt are still getting deported as they or their family arrived a year too late.

So by not dealing with it properly, by pretending it's simply a case of overzealous home office administrators and unfortunately lost documents and not the policy itself that's unworkable, they've simply prolonged the clusterfuck this has created.

Don’t see the problem. People were/are either permanently in the UK legally or not. Those that were British when they arrived should obviously be allowed to stay with all the benefit of legal residents. But giving blanket amnesties to all those who are not legally here simply because they have evaded the authorities for a few years is wrong. By all means judge individual cases on their merits, but a blanket approval lessens the number of places for those the country desperately needs (eg, doctors)...

 

[Gramsci]

You know I'm not talking about my own position there don't you?

You could make it more clear.

I am coming from standpoint of living in Brixton, working with East Europeans and having a partner who is from another EU country.

I live this. Im not particularly interested in polls or abstract discussion on this matter of immigration. It's directly part of my life and personal experience.

Which is why I have taken time off Brixton forum and posted here.