The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[bimble]

tbh it's part of the same mindset that threw its weight and money behind the vaccine. It's not a coincidence that Donald Trump also placed huge emphasis on developing a vaccine rather than controlling the spread.

I'm glad the vaccine is rolling out swiftly here. But it needs to be seen as part of a wider whole.

On the face of it being an island looks like a massive advantage, in a pandemic, but one which was not seized at all. Even after the constant refrain of 'control our borders' for years, so I'm still not sure why they chose to do sod all on that front.
I think the island-ness of the uk is a bigger factor in brexit than its given credit for, too, but thats an entirely different conversation.

 

[rutabowa]

I'm glad the vaccine is rolling out swiftly here. But it needs to be seen as part of a wider whole.

Ok for sure I agree with that. I also think looking at the wider whole does not show the EU in a very good light either though; seems like the rich countries still get it first, but everyone is delayed by a few months.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ok for sure I agree with that. I also think looking at the wider whole does not show the EU in a very good light either though; seems like the rich countries still get it first, but everyone is delayed by a few months.

I don't think the pandemic has shown the EU in a good light at all, not just over the vaccine. Overall, it probably gets a D or an E grade. As does the UK.

 

[mojo pixy]

I too supported remain. Still don't support brexit really. It is just when something is as clear as this point, it looks crazy to deny it imo.

Essentially, the milk has been spilled and I don't see any point in crying about it now. It doesn't help, it stokes conflict and enmity, and it's really lame and boring.

I feel this is a minority position, but that doesn't stop it from being the right position.

 

[rutabowa]

Essentially, the milk has been spilled and I don't see any point in crying about it now. It doesn't help, it stokes conflict and enmity, and it's really lame and boring.

I feel it's a minority position, but that doesn't stop it from being the right position.

I think it is how most people in the country feel tbh. It is just that the arguments are loudest.

 

[gosub]

They'll be watching closely, if all looks good in a couple of years I think it will probably happen. If not not.

How? There is no exit mechanism for the EUro

 

[rutabowa]

So, are you looking at countries that opted in and saying "Here's what happens when you opt out"?

I don't really think your questions are going anywhere interesting, so I'm not expending any more effort in replying.

 

[Pickman's model]

Essentially, the milk has been spilled and I don't see any point in crying about it now. It doesn't help, it stokes conflict and enmity, and it's really lame and boring.

I feel this is a minority position, but that doesn't stop it from being the right position.

oh there's a great deal more crying to come: not about the why but about the impacts of the brexit which our government is hellbent on. make no mistake, there's a great deal more brexit to come. the rill thus far wept will become a mighty river like the lena as more tears are shed.

 

[bimble]

How? There is no exit mechanism for the EUro

What do you mean, why couldn't they just go back to having Francs if they leave the EU? Massive ballache sure but impossible? The Euro currency i have never understood tbh, how it's even supposed to really work.

 

[andysays]

If the EU is responsible for Ash Dieback it can fuck right off, that’s decimating half of the forest here. Should have left ages ago if it would have meant their stupid fungus stayed in Brussels.

I didn't expect to make any converts, but I welcome any who declare themselves

 

[rutabowa]

I don't think the pandemic has shown the EU in a good light at all, not just over the vaccine. Overall, it probably gets a D or an E grade. As does the UK.

agreed again. There are sooo many things that the UK government did get terribly wrong!

So I guess that is another plus for brexit: if the EU is shown up as not providing benefit to its member states, and also shown as providing the most benefits to the richest countries whilst the poorer countries get the leftovers, than that is a good reason for not being part of it I guess.... possibly. It definitely goes in the "debit" column for "belonging the EU benefits" anyway.

 

[Raheem]

I too supported remain (I didn't vote, I forgot. I figure it was Other People's Argument.... still do). Still don't support brexit really. It is just when something is as clear as this point, it looks crazy to deny it imo.

Hard to accept that it's particularly clear when I can't get an explanation of what it means (and when you're own reason for believing it seems to be that you read someone's unelaborated opinion and see no reason not to just accept it).

 

[rutabowa]

I can't explain it any more clearly. Everyone else seems to have got it anyway.

 

[andysays]

Maybe it's just better not to frame it in terms of brexit at all?

And wrt this government, it appears to be one thing they have done better than many other governments, one among hundreds that it did much worse. It's not too much of a stretch to think that, wrt the government decisions at least, this was mostly down to dumb luck, and it doesn't bring anyone back to life.

Loads of Remain supporters have been demanding that Leave supporters come up with a concrete benefit of Brexit, less than two months after the thing has actually happened.

When someone suggests that the quicker and apparently more effective roll out of covid vaccinations is one such benefit, it takes a special level of disingenuous to turn round and say this.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

agreed again. There are sooo many things that the UK government did get terribly wrong!

So I guess that is another plus for brexit: if the EU is shown up as not providing benefit to its member states, and also shown as providing the most benefits to the richest countries whilst the poorer countries get the leftovers, than that is a good reason for not being part of it I guess.... possibly. It definitely goes in the "debit" column for "belonging the EU benefits" anyway.

It's an illustration of some of the ways the EU needs to change. Dunno about others, but my position was always akin to 'radical remain' in any case. I wanted the UK to stay in the EU and I wanted the EU to undergo reforms.

 

[Spymaster]

Loads of Remain supporters have been demanding that Leave supporters come up with a concrete benefit of Brexit, less than two months after the thing has actually happened.

When someone suggests that the quicker and apparently more effective roll out of covid vaccinations is one such benefit, it takes a special level of disingenuous to turn round and say this.

This lot remind me of that Comical Ali dude, who refused to accept that there were American tanks in Iraq when there was one in the picture behind him

 

[gosub]

What do you mean, why couldn't they just go back to having Francs if they leave the EU? Massive ballache sure but impossible? The Euro currency i have never understood tbh, how it's even supposed to really work.

Would that franc be backed by the reserves given to the ECB or are they now 'pooled'

 

[Raheem]

I can't explain it any more clearly. Everyone else seems to have got it anyway.

I wasn't asking you to explain, just pointing out that you haven't.

 

[rutabowa]

It's an illustration of some of the ways the EU needs to change. Dunno about others, but my position was always akin to 'radical remain' in any case. I wanted the UK to stay in the EU and I wanted the EU to undergo reforms.

Yes fine, this was probably my position too if I was pinned down. SO, this being the case: that is how the EU currently is, and there are currently no plans in sight to change it, so it therefore HAS to also go down as a "benefit of leaving" right? that is just logic.

 

[Raheem]

This lot remind me of that Comical Ali dude who refused to accept that there were American tanks in Iraq when there was one in the picture behind him

I wouldn't get started on Iraq as an analogy, though.

 

[Yossarian]

Britain's impressively efficient vaccine rollout is a massive victory for the NHS.

The government's vaccine procurement strategy could also end up being a good advertisement for Brexit but that's going to depend on how well the AstraZeneca vaccine performs against COVID variants and whether or not Britain has become over-reliant on it - declaring it an unqualified success now seems a bit like declaring victory well before half-time when the other team (the virus, not the EU) still has plenty of substitutions to make.

 

[rutabowa]

Britain's impressively efficient vaccine rollout is a massive victory for the NHS.

The government's vaccine procurement strategy could also end up being a good advertisement for Brexit but that's going to depend on how well the AstraZeneca vaccine performs against COVID variants and whether or not Britain has become over-reliant on it - declaring it an unqualified success now seems a bit like declaring victory well before half-time when the other team (the virus, not the EU) still has plenty of substitutions to make.

I don't think that how well the vaccine performs in the end changes the fact that it was the right (or wrong) bet to make in the first place. Nothing is certain, but it was def right to take that action as quickly as possible imo.

And, obviously, the impressive rollout could not have taken place if we didn't have the vaccine doses in the first place. It just seems squirmy to avoid saying at any costs that the procurement was a success.

 

[ska invita]

The principle of buying and distributing collectively so both poorer and richer states all get a fair share of the vaccine is a sound one.
The principle of Bullingdon Boys throwing money at the mess that they make is a shit one.

 

[rutabowa]

The principle of buying and distributing collectively so both poorer and richer states all get a fair share of the vaccine is a sound one.

That does sound good. It doesn't sound anything like what actually happened in the EU though.

 

[editor]

Essentially, the milk has been spilled and I don't see any point in crying about it now. It doesn't help, it stokes conflict and enmity, and it's really lame and boring.

I feel this is a minority position, but that doesn't stop it from being the right position.

So people whose livelihoods have been devastated by Brexit should just shush now and quit lobbying and shouting for change because it's "really lame and boring"?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So people whose livelihoods have been devastated by Brexit should just shush now and quit lobbying and shouting for change because it's "really lame and boring"?

Yeah, that's just silly. Democracy wrt the UK's relationship with the EU did not stop in June 2016. That doesn't have to mean a narrow 'Rejoin!' position, merely one that says 'this brexit is really shit, I advocate these changes'.

imo the most destructive aspect of the 'get over it' attitude is the way that it normalises the idea that certain things simply cannot be changed now, things that were and are by no means inevitable with brexit, such as the removal of free movement. That plays right into the hands of the tories imo.

 

[rutabowa]

Yeah, that's just silly. Democracy wrt the UK's relationship with the EU did not stop in June 2016. That doesn't have to mean a narrow 'Rejoin!' position, merely one that says 'this brexit is really shit, I advocate these changes'.

I think emphasising the second part ("I advocate these changes") will get far better results than the first part ("this brexit is really shit"). In fact the first part is actually counterproductive to achieving the second, as well as being redundant. If you start with that, it is like saying "FIRSTLY stop listening to me, and secondly I would like you to do xxxx things for me."

 

[not-bono-ever]

it’s an army of fucking strawmen . I expected better on here. Poor show.

 

[andysays]

I think emphasising the second part ("I advocate these changes") will get far better results than the first part ("this brexit is really shit"). In fact the first part is actually counterproductive to achieving the second, as well as being redundant.

It's not even "this brexit is really shit", TBH, it's more like "there is absolute nothing about brexit which might be a benefit. Anything you claim as a benefit isn't really to do with Brexit, it's just a coincidence"

 

[kabbes]

It's an illustration of some of the ways the EU needs to change. Dunno about others, but my position was always akin to 'radical remain' in any case. I wanted the UK to stay in the EU and I wanted the EU to undergo reforms.

“Radical remain” makes “lexit” look realistic and thought-through