The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
- Thread starter brogdale
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Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Seems a bit vague. Are you able to explain what it means? How might the UK have become ensnared?
Supine
Newt Member
Well no, because Brexit had no impact on it. I can't be arsed with pro/anti Brexit arguements anymore as it is done. Vaccine apprioval, and supply and purchasing could have been done independently or jointly under either scenario.
A bit of me does think it would have been better to do joint procurement for solidarity with our European neighbours tbh. I'm very happy we are rolling out vaccines at speed but it's for the good of the UK not the good of the wider world. I'd also like a lot more support for covax to help poorer nations but that's another matter.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yeah. That or dumb luck.
UK could have joined in if it had wanted to. Chose not to, for not entirely good reasons, it has to be said.
EU joint procurement - UK's delayed participation undermines the NHS and risks lives | UK in a changing Europe
gosub
~#
But the EU states that got impatient and did negotiate their own contracts, ended up having them subsumed into the EU one and have ended up (at this stage) having had to share what they arranged to procure shared with the rest of EUrope at the 'benefit' the vaccines costing less per vile.
In other news
Eurozone tries to patch up its broken debt rules (telegraph.co.uk)
2021's French and German elections , could well be a 'hold my beer' to 2020's US election.
OK there is an argument that there should have been more european solidarity. It would be quite a tough sell to people in the UK though: "we shouldn't really have all these vaccines, really we should have a lot less and have more people die in the UK but it would have been fairer." I mean it is probably right globally speaking, but good luck trying to make that argument talking to people living in the UK.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
If the UK had joined in with the EU scheme, we would never have known that it would have had a quicker roll out outside that scheme.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's not really a 'benefit of brexit' we're talking about here. If you're praising the UK, it's actually praising the wisdom of the Boris Johnson government.
As I said, in this instance, we're talking mostly about dumb luck.
As I said, in this instance, we're talking mostly about dumb luck.
bimble
floofy
Marine le Pen doing well apparently. She used to want Frexit but doesn't now, does anyone know why?
BobDavis
Gimme All Your Lovin’
It is fine line to tread. It is fair to say that plenty are are convinced brexit is the cause of our world leading vaccine programme & nothing will change their minds. Ed Balls of all people made a good point on R4 news this morning. He opined that the UK’s post brexit position in the world would be better served by leading the way but without the triumphalism. As subtle as calling our successful vaccination programme world leading not world beating perhaps ?
2hats
Dust.
The Israelis aren't convinced that they are seeing that in the real world.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
As far as I understand, the RN (rebrand of FN) now favour a remain-and-reform position of winding the EU back to a kind of EEC-form 'alliance'.
Oh definitely. But it is difficult when there are also plenty of people who are convinced that out scheme is not actually world leading, it was just luck, it is a tory scheme so must be shit, and anyway we could have done it within the EU anyway, and anyway it would have been better if we didn't do it at all.
I have to bow to the expertise of others on this one. It seems like a mess of views right now though.
I was just looking at what actually happened in countries accross the EU.
This report, very pro-EU from happier times last year, suggests that the direction of movement should be towards a "healthcare union". Not sure that will have many takers now, but it was clearly an ambition: The Role of the Joint Procurement Agreement during the COVID-19 Pandemic: Assessing Its Usefulness and Discussing Its Potential to Support a European Health Union | European Journal of Risk Regulation | Cambridge Core
" The use of the JPA to enhance a technological revolution in healthcare would solve at least some of the problems associated with the acquisition of health technologies, but it could be a practical stepping stone towards a closer “Healthcare Union”. It might be argued that this would bring EU health law even more within the Internal Market domain and would increase the level of economic considerations in such a politically sensitive policy area. However, an economic instrument like the JPA, which, as yet, has attracted very little attention in legal scholarship, might be the key to unlocking further cooperation between Member States’ healthcare systems, supporting the creation of an innovative, accessible and inclusive European Health Union."
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Maybe it's just better not to frame it in terms of brexit at all?
And wrt this government, it appears to be one thing they have done better than many other governments, one among hundreds that it did much worse. It's not too much of a stretch to think that, wrt the government decisions at least, this was mostly down to dumb luck, and it doesn't bring anyone back to life.
BobDavis
Gimme All Your Lovin’
Populism init? Polls atm show that any frexit ref would be lost but if that changes then Le Pen’s opinion will change I‘m sure.
I mostly don't frame it terms of brexit, but this is a thread about brexit.
All it needs is to say "yes that is one example where the EU fucked up and acting outside the EU proved advantageous for whatever reason", and then move on. It is not the only issue, it is probably quite trivial in the scheme of things, but trying to say that it does not show anything at all about the EU just looks totally deluded from the outside.
All it needs is to say "yes that is one example where the EU fucked up and acting outside the EU proved advantageous for whatever reason", and then move on. It is not the only issue, it is probably quite trivial in the scheme of things, but trying to say that it does not show anything at all about the EU just looks totally deluded from the outside.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
So, are you looking at countries that opted in and saying "Here's what happens when you opt out"?
gosub
~#
Beyond vaccines...Western economies will need defibulating as a result of covid. Do you think the UK, were it involved in the EU bun fight, would have been a net recipient of aid or a bankroller?
Supine
Newt Member
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Surely you have enough other benefits you don't need to pretend this was one
I voted Remain ffs
editor
hiraethified
I can't imagine there's many Europeans looking over the utter chaos of Brexit and thinking, "Yeah, I'd love some of that for my country."
It also doesn't look like there was much solidarity within the EU joitn procure agreement when it came to the crunch: How Europe fell behind on vaccines
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
tbh it's part of the same mindset that threw its weight and money behind the vaccine. It's not a coincidence that Donald Trump also placed huge emphasis on developing a vaccine rather than controlling the spread.
I'm glad the vaccine is rolling out swiftly here. But it needs to be seen as part of a wider whole.
bimble
floofy
They'll be watching closely, if all looks good in a couple of years I think it will probably happen. If not not.
I too supported remain (I didn't vote, I forgot. I figure it was Other People's Argument.... still do). Still don't support brexit really. It is just when something is as clear as this point, it looks crazy to deny it imo.
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