The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Spymaster]

It's the party who signed a contract to buy x amount first, gets x first. Which is boringly normal.

... signed, paid for, approved, and by the way, they happen to be manufacturing it as well!

 

[Pickman's model]

Germany at least has only approved the AZ vaccine for over 65s, so I'm not sure this argument really works

Yours doesn't because Germany has banned it for the over 65s

 

[andysays]

Yours doesn't because Germany has banned it for the over 65s

I noticed and corrected my mistake, but thanks for pointing it out

 

[Pickman's model]

... signed, paid for, approved, and by the way, they happen to be manufacturing it as well!

For the record no member of the UK govt is involved in the process of making the vaccine and thank fuck for that

 

[Anju]

Germany at least has only approved the AZ vaccine for under 65s, so I'm not sure this argument really works

ETA under, not over

Other countries are available plus there are millions of people under 65 with other health conditions who should be getting vaccinated ASAP.

 

[Anju]

They have. It was in the newspapers last month.

OK.

 

[TopCat]

Tedious strawman nonsense.

1. Few on here were arguing for a federal Europe.
2. None on here believed the EU were angels of propriety.

I suggest you go and play on Twitter with some FBPE types if that’s your level of debate.

Thanks for the patronisation. I think most admit that if the vote had been to stay in the EU this would have been taken as consent for the enlarged eu and the last time we would ever been consulted.

 

[TopCat]

Er. I was just looking at this very dramatic post of yours, which I found kind of funny and a bit pathetic.

To answer though, none of this grim vaccine stuff seems surprising really, in the circumstances. And it has not suddenly opened my eyes to the evilness of the EU, or of our own Gov.

Did Greece open your eyes a bit or did you turn and look elsewhere?

 

[magneze]

Since Germany have banned the AZ for over 65s (perhaps the rest of the EU will follow?) is the idea that less vulnerable people (under 65s) in the EU be given priority than over 65s in the UK?

Have they thought about this position?

 

[bimble]

Did Greece open your eyes a bit or did you turn and look elsewhere?

2016 called and wants it’s tired argument back.

 

[sleaterkinney]

That isn't the same as all AZ vaccine produced in the UK goes to the UK only is it.

It's the party who signed a contract to buy x amount first, gets x first. Which is boringly normal.

As for the Daily Mail, no one should be reading it.

Well no, if AZ signed a contract to supply both it should do that, and not favour one over the other.

Apparently the contract they signed does mention the UK production facilities.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well no, if AZ signed a contract to supply both it should do that, and not favour one over the other.

here's the thing.

there is a plant in the uk, which is at capacity supplying the uk

there is a plant in belgium, at which there are production difficulties. this is the main plant supplying the eu

the uk is no longer in the european union. so it's not like the european court of justice can rule on the matter

 

[sleaterkinney]

here's the thing.

there is a plant in the uk, which is at capacity supplying the uk

there is a plant in belgium, at which there are production difficulties. this is the main plant supplying the eu

the uk is no longer in the european union. so it's not like the european court of justice can rule on the matter

They signed a contract mentioning four sites, two of which are in the UK and giving clear delivery amounts. Why shouldn't they be kept to that?

 

[Spymaster]

Well no, if AZ signed a contract to supply both it should do that, and not favour one over the other.

This is the point. AZ are arguing that their commitment to supply the EU was not absolute but one to ensure it’s “best efforts” to do so. Now people may not like that but it is a legal position. The U.K. is being supplied by a U.K. supply chain whilst the EU was to be supplied by a Dutch and Belgian supply chain which has faltered.

 

[Spymaster]

here's the thing.

there is a plant in the uk, which is at capacity supplying the uk

there is a plant in belgium, at which there are production difficulties. this is the main plant supplying the eu

the uk is no longer in the european union. so it's not like the european court of justice can rule on the matter

This.

 

[Pickman's model]

They signed a contract mentioning four sites, two of which are in the UK and giving clear delivery amounts. Why shouldn't they be kept to that?

have you seen the unpublished contract?

 

[TopCat]

have you seen the unpublished contract?

Pingety Pong is sitting on it.

 

[bimble]

told you so etc

 

[TopCat]

Does it confirm the EU gets served first despite signing the contract three months after the UK and not actually handing over the cash yet?

 

[hitmouse]

thats the puppies- all dressed in black with frock tail coats and top hats IIRC

eta

View attachment 251837

I reckon that in the best spirit of European internationalism and all that, we should merge the Spanish and British approaches to unpaid wages and debt collecting. So if a company doesn't pay out the money that they should, a bloke in a frock coat and top hat holding a briefcase would turn up and silently drive a JCB through their foyer.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I read that a contact was signed that all AZ


As I understand it the government has put a clause into the AZ contract that says all vaccines produced in Britain will go to British people first. Which is why the EU is now threatening to do the same with vaccines produced in Belgium. Sorry, too busy teaching the children of the Great British Public right now to provide sources but that has been widely reported.

I'm also teaching the children of the great british public, so we're both on the same moral high ground there. The contracts are not in the public domain, we don't know what they say. We do know that any contract between AZ and the UK would have been agreed upon by both parties, and that even if there was a provision stating that UK manufactured vaccines were to be used in the UK, that would fall some way short of the UK blocking exports.

Incidentally, I teach science. Today I'm explaining how the 'widely reported' link between MMR vaccines and autism was and is a load of old cobblers. Reporting is not evidence. My year 9's know that. I wouldn't normally badger people like this but you went in on me about being personally offended by my posts and saying I didn't know what fairness meant so it seems reasonable to expect you to have some basis for saying that. I for my part will admit I was wrong about the EU approving the Pfizer vaccine but nothing really turns on that as the issue here is with the AZ supply chain and only the EU's baseless threats to various parties that are not remotely responsible for that supply issue have dragged Pfizer into it.

 

[bimble]

well, this bit of the contract between AZ & the EU looks like it definitely isnt a case of -the vaccines made in the UK are not to be used for EU export.


Its the UK's turn to publish their contract now.

 

[sleaterkinney]

have you seen the unpublished contract?

No, but that's what the european commission president said.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Best reasonable efforts. Breaching the terms of another, pre-existing contract would seem to go beyond best reasonable efforts. But I'm sure some lawyers will do well out of all this one way or another.

 

[Pickman's model]

well, this bit of the contract between AZ & the EU looks like it definitely isnt a case of -the vaccines made in the UK are not to be used for EU export.
View attachment 251903

Its the UK's turn to publish their contract now.

don't you find it interesting that the eu can declare non-eu countries to be in the eu for eu purposes without the say-so of that country?

 

[bimble]

don't you find it interesting that the eu can declare non-eu countries to be in the eu for eu purposes without the say-so of that country?

it is a contract, so no one party 'declared' anything.
That bit just says, the vaccines we are agreeing to buy from you they might be manufactured anywhere, including in the UK.

 

[Pickman's model]

it is a contract, so no one party 'declared' anything.
That bit just says, the vaccines we are agreeing to buy from you they might be manufactured anywhere, including in the UK.

which is for the purposes of section 5.4 in the eu

and it clearly doesn't say the vaccine can be manufactured anywhere

 

[Pickman's model]

anyway sleaterkinney i'm seeing no mention of these 'four sites'

 

[bimble]

it clearly doesn't say the vaccine can be manufactured anywhere

Read the rest of section 5.4, if you've nothing better to do whilst we wait for the UK to publish theirs.

 

[Pickman's model]

Read the rest of section 5.4, if you've nothing better to do whilst we wait for the UK to publish theirs.

my bad, i meant shall whereas obvs as you point out az can

but nothing there about two sites in the uk, the only place in the contract which mentions sites is section 5.5