The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
i thought it was that member states could keep things VAT exempt, but once something had been brought in to VAT then it couldn't be exempted again, although different rates of VAT (like 5% in this case rather than the usual whack) could be applied - not sure if there is / was a minimum amount, otherwise surely uk government could have reduced it to something like 0.1 %
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
The minimum is 5٪ but it wouldn't surprise me if new member states could retain exemptions. Its the same principle as with nationalised industry.
mauvais
on reddit or something
I think this is why Ireland's is 0% - predates the EU standardisation and hasn't been altered since. The UK reduced it from 20% to 5% in 2000.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Apparently this is an EU thing, with Ireland being the exception because they imposed 0% before the supra-state edict.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Im trying to get my head around the deal about Gibraltar. Was watching Spanish news last night and it came up ( as my partner is Spanish we did Spanish New Year with the grapes at 11pm UK time).
So Gibralter is going to be part of the Schengen zone in the future. The last minute deal still needs finalising. A lot of Spanish workers cross over to Gibraltar every day. The Gibraltar local government wanted to be in Schengen area. Sticking pont was having Spanish customs at the airport ( the new border under this agreement). Compromise for now is Frontex will be at airport. Claims on sovereignity on both sides are put aside for this deal. Gibraltar bit touchy subject for Spain.
Looking up Schengen and it comprises EU and non EU countries. Means free movement- no passport checks or visas needed from what I can gather. Im no expert so if others know more then post up.
Makes me wonder why UK could not have joined the Schengen zone once it left EU.
I still don't really understand how different part of what comes under UK sovereignity can have different deals.
english.elpais.com
www.theguardian.com
So looks like gradually Gibraltar will have closer relationship with Spain and EU than it does with this country. Over 90% of Gibraltar people voted Remain.
So Gibralter is going to be part of the Schengen zone in the future. The last minute deal still needs finalising. A lot of Spanish workers cross over to Gibraltar every day. The Gibraltar local government wanted to be in Schengen area. Sticking pont was having Spanish customs at the airport ( the new border under this agreement). Compromise for now is Frontex will be at airport. Claims on sovereignity on both sides are put aside for this deal. Gibraltar bit touchy subject for Spain.
Looking up Schengen and it comprises EU and non EU countries. Means free movement- no passport checks or visas needed from what I can gather. Im no expert so if others know more then post up.
Makes me wonder why UK could not have joined the Schengen zone once it left EU.
I still don't really understand how different part of what comes under UK sovereignity can have different deals.
Spain, UK reach ‘preliminary agreement’ that will see an end to the border with Gibraltar
The country’s foreign ministers announced the deal, which will see the British Overseas Territory join the Schengen area, with just hours to go before the United Kingdom definitively leaves the EU
Spain and UK reach draft deal on post-Brexit status of Gibraltar
British overseas territory had been left out of deal announced on Christmas Eve
So looks like gradually Gibraltar will have closer relationship with Spain and EU than it does with this country. Over 90% of Gibraltar people voted Remain.
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MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
The folks currently trying to sneak across the Channel in rubber boats. If we were in the Schengen Zone then they could just buy a bus ticket, hell the Mayor of Calais would probably be out on the streets giving them out for free.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Sorry I don't know what you are going on about..
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
If we're in the Schengen Zone then effectively once you've entered one country, you've entered them all, no passport checks as you move from one country to the other. If we were in Schengen then there would be no passport control between Dover and Calais. Catching a ferry would be no different from catching a train from London to Birmingham, you just need a ticket. So once the migrants have got into France then they have effectively got into UK. That was one of the main reasons quoted as to why we stayed out of the Schengen Zone in the first place.
There's no way you are going to sell staying in the Schengen Zone (not all countries in it are EU members, Iceland isn't) to Tory backbenchers who are sensitive to public demands to end both regular and irregular migration into this country.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Tory government has just done a deal wih Spain over Schengen in case of Gibraltar.
So shows this is possible whilst staying out of EU.
Depends what public opionion you are talking about. Large Remain vote in my area ( Lambeth Inner London) was driven by seeing the Referendum as a vote on immigration
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Of course its possible Iceland and Norway are part of the Schengen Zone and they're not part of the EU. England, Scotland and Wales are not part of the Schengen Zone because we have a Govt which wants to regulate the flow of people into this country. And a very large part of the general population supports that view. Lambeth is not even remotely typical of how the country voted.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Nice.
Good to know my everyday life living in multicultural Lambeth is not typical of the British population.
So referendum ( as a lot of my Black British in Lambeth and inner London friends saw) was about immigration.
But then they aren't "typical" so thats all right then.
ska invita
back on the other side
Thank God we're finally out of Fortress Europe
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You're reasoning like Theresa May. 48% of the country voted to stay in the EU and so to stay in the free movement area. Of the 52% who voted to leave, not all of them wanted to impose new immigration controls, which were not mentioned in the referendum question. Last year, about 12 million people voted tory with the tories the only main party committed to ending free movement - that's not 'a very large part of the general population' of a country with around 50 million adults living in it.
(To dispose of the technicality, the UK was never in the Schengen Zone, and Ireland still isn't in it, but that's not really important as all the important bits of free movement were there.)
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh now we're plucky little britain outside festung europa aiming to drown migrants in the channel
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
It isn't typical of the bulk of the country, the vast majority of the population outside the major metropolitan areas is predominately white. These are the areas that almost entirely voted Leave (greatly outnumbering those that voted Remain)
People voted Leave for all sorts of reasons but pretending there wasn't a massive anti-immigration vote is deluding yourself. Your friends are sadly right I am afraid, Much of the referendum vote was about immigration.
Though ironically of course the immigrants being specifically objected to are themselves white.
It isn't 'right' I am not defending the situation but it is what it is.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Land doesn't vote. The majority of people in the UK live in cities or towns, a very large number of them in the major metropolitan areas. But you're repeating Theresa May's logical failure yet again here. A majority voted leave and a majority of those that voted leave want immigration controls. That is probably true. But that majority of a majority is a minority. The other 48% don't just disappear from the equation when you're asking a separate question.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
So the Brexit referendum was largely about immgration is what you are saying?
Im not deluding myself. My last post said that a lot of my Black British friends ( whose parents came here from Carribbean) voted Remain. Whatever reservations they had about EU they saw the whole debate leading up to referendum as being about what view one had of immigration.
One said to me in lead up to referendum UKIP are NF in blazers. Anyone who votes UKIP is racist. Poles are getting the same stick his father got when he came here from Carribbean. So he was voting Remain.
White Londoner I know . like me has immigrant as partner, ended up voting Remain as debate in lead up to referendum was talking about immigration. He was not that keen on EU but felt he had to vote Remain for that reason. He had been not sure but last few weeks to run up to referendum made him vote Remain. His partner btw was non EU.
So Im actually agreeing with a lot of what your saying.
I also think that any reconcilation between Leave areas and Remain ones is not going to happen. Brexit and the divisions it has caused will live on post Brexit.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Now we can get together with Aus, NZ, US and Can, call it Oceania and rebrand ourselves Airstrip One
didn’t you spend years telling us that brexiteers weren’t racist ?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep. It was bad before the vote, worse after it. It's a mistake to just look at skin colour when thinking about racial prejudice.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
No I didnt.
My position on Brexit was that EU was pretty crap but the Brexit debate and run up to referendum was pushed by the anti immigrant right in this country. UKIP and sections of the Tory party so at referendum I was Remain.
I can understand some of the left arguments for Leave. EU is not democratic/ pushes neo liberal agenda - see Greece/ stops democratically elected governments from pursuing economic poliicies to support there citizens ( see Greece and the PIGS/ limitiations on "state aid". I could go on.
Who is us? Do you mean the Brixton Forum? Is this a version of how Im a hypocrite?
Ive tried not to just reject anti EU arguments. Some of Remain side annoyed me. It was like EU was great. I found all the waving of EU flags embarrassing.
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MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Agreed they're a minority but they are a large minority and a very large percentage of them vote for a party that is willing to pander to those opinions. So their opinions thus carry more weight than they rationally should.
Other parties are much less willing to cater to those opinions, At the end of the day most people don't carefully sift through policies and vote for them all, they pick the one that they care about most and vote based on that, even if they thought rationally about it they are losing out in so many other ways.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Good Points deserve Good Answers
I don't think it was entirely about immigration no but it was certainly a major issue for Leave voters (not helped by dog whistling from politicians). I also think a lot of the people who objected to East European immigrants weren't objecting to the immigrants per se but were unhappy with what they saw as their own exclusion from the benefits that being in the EU brought and the Poles were a convenient target for no matter how innocent they (the Poles) were as individuals.
To a lot of people not a majority (I hope) but certainly a significant minority the referendum had a strong anti-immigration vibe to it and the more people felt it would effect them personally the more they might be expected to think that.
One of my son's mates hurriedly married his Polish girlfriend just before 1st Non-Brexit Day after years of just living together so they clearly felt it would effect their relationship.
UKIP full of racists surely not? say it ain't so? Your friend and I see eye to eye on that at least.
Sadly I think you are right rapproachment is a long way off especially once the consequences start to filter through and the search begins for someone to blame.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
The immigration thing was forefront, it was based on the idea that Romanians, Hungarians etc. would be happy to come to the U.K. and work for a quarter of what the U.K. worker needs to live if they can live in squaller and send the lion’s share home. Being at the bottom of the heap and competing with these people and objecting to this equates to racists apparently and is still a source of bewilderment to many. Perhaps if those a few rungs up had offered more crumbs it wouldn’t have come to this.
Flavour
hang the bankers
True as that may be the actual hard-core racists who organize politically around openly racist positions tend to be focused on Muslims in particular, wherever they come from. Romanians feature much less though that tension regarding Eastern European workers undercutting wages has been present since the 2004 accession of Poland and Co. Despite that I don't think its ever been foreground for the likes of football lads, Britain first, Tommy r, the EDL and others
Smangus
comatose at a desk
The minimum VAT rate in the UK is the Zero rate (0%), when VAT was introduced (early 1970s) sanitary products were not negotiated to be included in this rate, like (for example) food and children's clothing. Up until the 2000 budget sanitary products were charged at the standard rate of VAT (then 17.5%) but then brought into the reduced rate of 5%.
Why have a zero rate? When VAT was introduced Europe wanted us to 2 rates, a higher and a lower rate, we got around this by having a standard rate (8%) and a zero rate.
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
Fucking hell Hungary age the Scandi lads
gosub
~#
I'm not even sure it was even a majority of a majority for whom it was about immigration, it was a significant number but it was a hotch potch of different things.
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