The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

There are at least two very different principle sources of motivation for Leave voters, even leaving aside the more niche motivations such as Lexit. One of them is the idea of Britain as a global player being “held back” by and “stuck” in Europe, preventing it from getting out into the wider world. This is the principle representation seen in middle-England Leavers. The other is the idea of a vulnerable Britain under cultural attack from a hegemonic Europe, who want to steal our pints and tell us how to live. This is the principle representation seen in Leavers from more deprived northern areas. So you can’t even say that there is just one conceptualisation of the nation-state and its relationship with other nation-states that is driving people, let alone just one motivating factor.

I'm kind of past caring about why various people voted to leave, but let's not forget another very important factor, possibly the most important factor, the one pushed hardest by Farage's lot: Foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs/housing/benefits/NHS/shops/whatever else. This is the shit that Johnson openly played on last year before the election, coming out with racist language about Eastern Europeans coming over here and bringing their culture. The most openly racist language from a Tory leader that I've ever heard.

iirc immigration was cited as a very important issue by more than 70% of leave voters when polled. And the more immigrants there were in an area, the fewer people voted leave. That was a very robust nationwide pattern. This was very much a case of a problem perceived to be true but not directly experienced as true.

 

[kabbes]

I'm kind of past caring about why various people voted to leave, but let's not forget another very important factor, possibly the most important factor, the one pushed hardest by Farage's lot: Foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs/housing/benefits/NHS/shops/whatever else. This is the shit that Johnson openly played on last year before the election, coming out with racist language about Eastern Europeans coming over here and bringing their culture. The most openly racist language from a Tory leader that I've ever heard.

iirc immigration was cited as a very important issue by more than 70% of leave voters when polled. And the more immigrants there were in an area, the fewer people voted leave. That was a very robust nationwide pattern. This was very much a case of a problem perceived to be true but not directly experienced as true.

This was part of the representation indeed (and one covered in some depth here if you’re interested). That paper I linked to above, though, identifies that although an association between Eastern Europeans in particular with orientalist stigmas had indeed been established as common-sense “fact” across the board, it was something that existed as an adjunct to the way people understood the Europe-Britain relationship. It wasn’t the dangers of immigrants that dictated this understanding of the relationship. Remainers understood Europe as a desirable cosmopolitan backdrop and had an internationalist ideology — that was how they constructed what Europe meant even though they also demonstrated this ”undesirable East vs desirable West Europe” understanding. By contrast, Leavers saw Europe as one of the ways I mentioned above.

The point is that people’s motivations aren’t straightforward. Certainly not as straightforward as “vote to get rid of foreigners” or “vote to keep the queen”. These are parodies of Leaver positions that do nothing except ensure that no true engagement is necessary, because what’s the point of engaging with morons?

 

[brogdale]

iirc immigration was cited as a very important issue by more than 70% of leave voters when polled. And the more immigrants there were in an area, the fewer people voted leave. That was a very robust nationwide pattern. This was very much a case of a problem perceived to be true but not directly experienced as true.

IIRC a number of studies did find that rates of accession state EU immigration was correlated significantly with L voting, though not as strongly as with other factors including educational qualifications, unemployment and mean age.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm kind of past caring about why various people voted to leave, but let's not forget another very important factor, possibly the most important factor, the one pushed hardest by Farage's lot: Foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs/housing/benefits/NHS/shops/whatever else. This is the shit that Johnson openly played on last year before the election, coming out with racist language about Eastern Europeans coming over here and bringing their culture. The most openly racist language from a Tory leader that I've ever heard.

iirc immigration was cited as a very important issue by more than 70% of leave voters when polled. And the more immigrants there were in an area, the fewer people voted leave. That was a very robust nationwide pattern. This was very much a case of a problem perceived to be true but not directly experienced as true.

A couple of days before the referendum I was arguing in a hospital with some women who said they were voting leave because of immigration and refused to accept the NHS only worked because of er immigrants

 

[littlebabyjesus]

IIRC a number of studies did find that rates of accession state EU immigration was correlated significantly with L voting, though not as strongly as with other factors including educational qualifications, unemployment and mean age.

Even that's not straightforward, though. wrt income, the very poorest weren't strongly leave. The leave vote found most resonance with people who are a little above the bottom. I do have some sympathy with aging blue collar workers who feel that there has been an influx of people taking their jobs and depressing wages since EU expansion. They were sold a con if they were convinced that brexit was the answer, though, as I'm afraid they are going to find out in the coming years. A far more effective response would have involved making a common cause with their fellow workers, wherever they are from.

 

[brogdale]

Even that's not straightforward, though. wrt income, the very poorest weren't strongly leave. The leave vote found most resonance with people who are a little above the bottom. I do have some sympathy with aging blue collar workers who feel that there has been an influx of people taking their jobs and depressing wages since EU expansion. They were sold a con if they were convinced that brexit was the answer, though, as I'm afraid they are going to find out in the coming years. A far more effective response would have involved making a common cause with their fellow workers, wherever they are from.

I really wasn't offering any commentary on the supposed motivations or their validity, merely the correlations revealed by psephological analysis.

 

[Pickman's model]

psephological analysis.

mind games for the middle classes

 

[brogdale]

mind games for the middle classes

Many a doctoral thesis, no doubt

 

[Flavour]

Nowadays Britain prefers to waive the rules

This is the best joke you've made all year

 

[brogdale]

This is the best joke you've made all year

Nah, mate...he peaked yesterday with the rest in penguins for Johnson.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is the best joke you've made all year

still waiting for you to offer a bon mot

 

[Smangus]

It's because we were screwed by the EU over fishing in the 70's.

-
It's because the fishing companies sold most of the UK fishing rights to the EU in the 90's and now want them back.

edit , as has been pointed out a few time previously oops.

 

[teuchter]

This is the best joke you've made all year

Not his own, even if he's happy to pass it off as such; it's been used by headline writers for several decades - google it.

 

[brogdale]

Not his own, even if he's happy to pass it off as such; it's been used by headline writers for several decades - google it.

Good to hear from our special correspondent for humour.

 

[teuchter]

This may help. It might not directly answer your query but your question is the best hook i could find for a link to this website.

Remain are LYING to UNDERMINE Taking Back Control of fishing. | Fishing for Leave

I found this

The allocation of fishing rights in UK fisheries

researchportal.port.ac.uk

It says:

Whichever way the quota management system develops in the future, it is worth noting that the Government has never attempted to extract any resource rent from the industry through quota or licence fees, nor indeed to recoup any of its management costs through charges. It has so far allowed all the returns from sales of licences and quota (initially freely given by the Government) to remain in private hands (see Hatcher and Pascoe 1998). This attitude may change if the costs of management increase significantly or if quota prices increase in a more organized and efficient market environment.

If there is potential for the UK govt to change its approach on this, and "attempt to extract any resource rent" then the way it looks to me is that control of quotas does have some value to the UK, and whatever that value is, isn't affected by whether the licenses are currently under foreign or UK "ownership". It's for that reason that I suggest that the fact that many licenses are currently in foreign ownership isn't necessarily that relevant to the current situation.

Of course it may still be the case that the actual value of the control of these licenses is minuscule in proportion to everything else.

 

[Flavour]

Nah, mate...he peaked yesterday with the rest in penguins for Johnson.

I'm actually not a huge fan of the whole South Georgia / former people running joke and try not to encourage it

 

[Artaxerxes]

Another fuck up I only found out the other day. The settled status for EU citizens isn't permanent. They have to renew it every time they renew their passports. It was free first time. Who's going to bet it will still be free in three or four years' time?

Didn't they explicitly rule out physical documentation to prove settled status as well? A very sane approach to take after... erm, not issuing those documents for the Windrush generation and its not like any issues happened with that recently.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh this will end well

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm actually not a huge fan of the whole South Georgia / former people running joke and try not to encourage it

I encourage it so you don't have to

 

[MickiQ]

A couple of days before the referendum I was arguing in a hospital with some women who said they were voting leave because of immigration and refused to accept the NHS only worked because of er immigrants

Middle Q told me once that the hospital where she worked was so diverse that she was convinced she was in Star Fleet rather than the NHS

 

[Artaxerxes]

Oh this will end well

It'll all end in tiers.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Didn't they explicitly rule out physical documentation to prove settled status as well? A very sane approach to take after... erm, not issuing those documents for the Windrush generation and its not like any issues happened with that recently.

It's all crap and lies. As I understand it, people will have to carry stuff with them along with their passports whenever they travel, or have something to access on their phones at the passport control, which amounts to the same thing as physical documentation.

 

[brogdale]

Who wants to live in a country like that?

 

[bimble]

Another fuck up I only found out the other day. The settled status for EU citizens isn't permanent. They have to renew it every time they renew their passports. It was free first time. Who's going to bet it will still be free in three or four years' time?

It wasn’t free was it ? I thought it cost people a few hundred quid to get their settled status papers, cheaper if you did it earlier.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It wasn’t free was it ? I thought it cost people a few hundred quid to get their settled status papers, cheaper if you did it earlier.

No it was free. But I'd wager it won't be free in five years' time.

Some kinds of visa are staggeringly expensive. Mate of mine spent three grand on a work visa. They're a nice little earner.

 

[Pickman's model]

Another fuck up I only found out the other day. The settled status for EU citizens isn't permanent. They have to renew it every time they renew their passports. It was free first time. Who's going to bet it will still be free in three or four years' time?

What makes you think that's a fuck up? Sounds quite deliberate to me

 

[bimble]

No it was free. But I'd wager it won't be free in five years' time.

Some kinds of visa are staggeringly expensive. Mate of mine spent three grand on a work visa. They're a nice little earner.

Oh, they changed their minds last year and made it free (apart from the hours you spend gathering the Evidence you have to send with your application).

Brexit: Refunding EU settled status fees costs up to £1.95m

More than 30,000 EU nationals have applied for post-Brexit settled status, a minister tells the Lib Dems.

www.bbc.com

 

[Roadkill]

 

[Raheem]

Maybe this educational piece featuring the late Mark E Smith will help clear up any confusion about the history of fishing rights.

"We can be quite reasonable about this. Give us the fucking cod."

 

[splonkydoo]

If the UK want to be nothing more than a sole trader, then let them at it