The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

It's because we were screwed by the EU over fishing in the 70's.

Whatever the wrongs of EU fishing policies over the decades, English fishing was sold out and sold off in the 1990s, something that was not forced on the UK by the EU. It happened because nobody gave a shit about saving English fishermen. I suggest you look that up because a lot of total crap is being spoken about fishing atm and I think bimble is right that this has symbolic nationalist importance more than anything, and coming from people who have never given a toss about British fishing or fishermen before.

ETA: One of the many ironies here is that Scotland's fishing is largely safe from brexit shenanigans because it wasn't sold off. And despite being one tenth of the size, Scotland does more fishing than England. Fishing is far more important to Scotland than England. A few numbers here:

Brexit trade deal: Who really owns UK fishing quotas?

 

[bimble]

There are a LOT of results when you google 'cod' and brexit. Cod is much more important than i thought, obviously.

eta love the disambiguation at the start of this: Cod Wars - Wikipedia

 

[editor]

Whatever the wrongs of EU fishing policies over the decades, English fishing was sold out and sold off in the 1990s, something that was not forced on the UK by the EU. It happened because nobody gave a shit about saving English fishermen. I suggest you look that up because a lot of total crap is being spoken about fishing atm and I think bimble is right that this has symbolic nationalist importance more than anything, and coming from people who have never given a toss about British fishing or fishermen before.

Absolutely. It's the same level of deceitful crap that produced the flat-out lie that the NHS would somehow benefit from a monthly multi million bonanza if we left the EU.

 

[teuchter]

More than half of the British fishing quota (specifically the English fishing quota - Scotland is totally different) was sold off to foreign interests in the 1990s. Not at the behest of the EU. Classic British laissez-faire economics is what has led to this situation. This sudden concern from Johnson and co is rank hypocrisy.

I don't fully understand why the ownership of licenses is relevant. A license doesn't represent "ownership" of a portion of the sea, does it? It represents permission from the UK to fish in the UK's waters and use a portion of the UK's quota. Presumably, the UK govt is paid revenue by the companies that own the licenses, or do they really own them outright and in perpetuity?

 

[not-bono-ever]

Just tried for the first time to get my head round what britain is actually asking for, fish-wise, and am now even more confused than before. Something about the ownership of boats that fly under a uk flag and something about a 200 mile 'exclusive economic zone ' in which all the fish are British citizens? Calais to dover is about 20 miles? I give up.

.



EEZ is a sea land grab that claims rights for exploitation outside the normal 6/12 territorial waters convention. This is what proved irksome fir the brits when Iceland invoked theirs last century. It gives rights to resciources but not any kind of ownership of the area itself iykwim. Obvs we can’t use in the North Sea because Europe.


ETA - we have a UK IE agreement for mutual access to our respective EEZ areas. I have no idea if this is impacted by Brexit , have not considered it - falls outside EU diktat. Might be an issue in the future is not already tho’

 

[not-bono-ever]

Arguably the EU CFP ensured that there was fish left to haggle over in the first place.

 

[mauvais]

Maybe this educational piece featuring the late Mark E Smith will help clear up any confusion about the history of fishing rights.

 

[Artaxerxes]

90% of cod from UK waters ends up in France according to BBC telly news last week

That consists of half a dozen fish and what on closer inspection turned out to be a boot.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Whatever the wrongs of EU fishing policies over the decades, English fishing was sold out and sold off in the 1990s, something that was not forced on the UK by the EU. It happened because nobody gave a shit about saving English fishermen. I suggest you look that up because a lot of total crap is being spoken about fishing atm and I think bimble is right that this has symbolic nationalist importance more than anything, and coming from people who have never given a toss about British fishing or fishermen before.

ETA: One of the many ironies here is that Scotland's fishing is largely safe from brexit shenanigans because it wasn't sold off. And despite being one tenth of the size, Scotland does more fishing than England. Fishing is far more important to Scotland than England. A few numbers here:

Brexit trade deal: Who really owns UK fishing quotas?

View attachment 244012

And here.

Brexit: The fisherman’s tale – DW – 11/27/2019

The fishing industry is a key issue in the debate over Brexit. But how did an industry that makes up only 0.1% of the UK economy become such a big deal?

www.dw.com

 

[not-bono-ever]

Btw, that majority of UK catch is Scots in origin. I cannot see this being any kind of issue at all with Scottish nationalists. Nope

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Btw, that majority of UK catch is Scots in origin. I cannot see this being any kind of issue at all with Scottish nationalists. Nope

And as mentioned above, nearly all of it is caught by Scottish fishermen. Fishing is approximately twenty times more important to Scotland than England as an industry.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Absolutely. It's the same level of deceitful crap that produced the flat-out lie that the NHS would somehow benefit from a monthly multi million bonanza if we left the EU.

It's the tory way. In the past the trick was to run down nationalised industries so that privatisation will be the saviour. Now, you underfund the NHS and brexit will be the saviour. Gut English fishing, and somehow, laughably, brexit terms are key to its survival. We of course know that the NHS lie was a lie (it was obvious at the time tbf), and the idea that Brexit will lead to a resurgence of English fishing is also a lie. Other lies include the idea that EU subsidy for places like Cornwall would be replaced by an equivalent British subsidy.

Meanwhile, we lose the right to travel and work freely across Europe.

This is what tory-led brexit looks like. It's a fucking ugly thing.

 

[MrCurry]

Seems to be just down to fish now.

So if the UK does eventually walk away from the table without a deal, they will actually be able to sign off with the phrase “so long, and thanks for all the fish?”

 

[editor]

It's the tory way. In the past the trick was to run down nationalised industries so that privatisation will be the saviour. Now, you underfund the NHS and brexit will be the saviour. Gut English fishing, and somehow, laughably, brexit terms are key to its survival. We of course know that the NHS lie was a lie (it was obvious at the time tbf), and the idea that Brexit will lead to a resurgence of English fishing is also a lie. Other lies include the idea that EU subsidy for places like Cornwall would be replaced by an equivalent British subsidy.

Meanwhile, we lose the right to travel and work freely across Europe.

This is what tory-led brexit looks like. It's a fucking ugly thing.

I'm still waiting for an unrepentant Brexit voter to explain to me exactly what benefits we will all be enjoying when Brexit finally happens and why all the extra expense, inconvenience, job, food and travel restrictions, and all the other costly hindrances to ordinary people was worth it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I cannot think of a single upside to brexit. Not one. I can point to literally hundreds of specific, detailed downsides.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I'm still waiting for an unrepentant Brexit voter to explain to me exactly what benefits we will all be enjoying when Brexit finally happens and why all the extra expense, inconvenience, job, food and travel restrictions, and all the other costly hindrances to ordinary people was worth it.

Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock....

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm still waiting for an unrepentant Brexit voter to explain to me exactly what benefits we will all be enjoying when Brexit finally happens and why all the extra expense, inconvenience, job, food and travel restrictions, and all the other costly hindrances to ordinary people was worth it.

Another fuck up I only found out the other day. The settled status for EU citizens isn't permanent. They have to renew it every time they renew their passports. It was free first time. Who's going to bet it will still be free in three or four years' time?

 

[bimble]

I don't fully understand why the ownership of licenses is relevant. A license doesn't represent "ownership" of a portion of the sea, does it? It represents permission from the UK to fish in the UK's waters and use a portion of the UK's quota. Presumably, the UK govt is paid revenue by the companies that own the licenses, or do they really own them outright and in perpetuity?

This may help. It might not directly answer your query but your question is the best hook i could find for a link to this website.

Remain are LYING to UNDERMINE Taking Back Control of fishing. | Fishing for Leave

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This may help. It might not directly answer your query but your question is the best hook i could find for a link to this website.

Remain are LYING to UNDERMINE Taking Back Control of fishing. | Fishing for Leave

They appear to be a little confused as to the difference between the word 'British' and the word 'English'.

 

[brogdale]

I'm still waiting for an unrepentant Brexit voter to explain to me exactly what benefits we will all be enjoying when Brexit finally happens and why all the extra expense, inconvenience, job, food and travel restrictions, and all the other costly hindrances to ordinary people was worth it.

Reminds me of when I had an actual discussion (that didn't descend into ranty shouting) with a local UKIP member about what motivated their activism. I straight up asked whether, for them, it was immigration or sovereignty that drove their energy for Leave; the answer was quite revealing; they admitted it was both, but essentially came down on the side of 'sovereignty' because it's so important that we're able to keep the Queen.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Reminds me of when I had an actual discussion (that didn't descend into ranty shouting) with a local UKIP member about what motivated their activism. I straight up asked whether, for them, it was immigration or sovereignty that drove their energy for Leave; the answer was quite revealing; they admitted it was both, but essentially came down on the side of 'sovereignty' because it's so important that we're able to keep the Queen.

hang on what? wtf does the EU have to do with the monarchy? They do know that there are half a dozen monarchies in the EU?

That's Biden-is-a-communist level of delusion.

 

[Yossarian]

hang on what? wtf does the EU have to do with the monarchy? They do know that there are half a dozen monarchies in the EU?

Maybe they thought EU courts would rule that the queen belongs to Germany.

 

[brogdale]

hang on what? wtf does the EU have to do with the monarchy? They do know that there are half a dozen monarchies in the EU?

That's Biden-is-a-communist level of delusion.

The UKIP activist/member running their street-stall genuinely thought that the issue of sovereignty concerned the continued existence of the monarchy. I'll admit that I was lost for words.

 

[kabbes]

There are at least two very different principle sources of motivation for Leave voters, even leaving aside the more niche motivations such as Lexit. One of them is the idea of Britain as a global player being “held back” by and “stuck” in Europe, preventing it from getting out into the wider world. This is the principle representation seen in middle-England Leavers. The other is the idea of a vulnerable Britain under cultural attack from a hegemonic Europe, who want to steal our pints and tell us how to live. This is the principle representation seen in Leavers from more deprived northern areas. So you can’t even say that there is just one conceptualisation of the nation-state and its relationship with other nation-states that is driving people, let alone just one motivating factor.

 

[Roadkill]

It's because we were screwed by the EU over fishing in the 70's.

As I have explained to you before, this is untrue. Why are you just repeating drivel from gammon Twitter all over the place?

e2a - some good points in Robert Saunders' thread here:

 

[The39thStep]

There are at least two very different principle sources of motivation for Leave voters, even leaving aside the more niche motivations such as Lexit. One of them is the idea of Britain as a global player being “held back” by and “stuck” in Europe, preventing it from getting out into the wider world. This is the principle representation seen in middle-England Leavers. The other is the idea of a vulnerable Britain under cultural attack from a hegemonic Europe, who want to steal our pints and tell us how to live. This is the principle representation seen in Leavers from more deprived northern areas. So you can’t even say that there is just one conceptualisation of the nation-state and its relationship with other nation-states that is driving people, let alone just one motivating factor.

Have you a source for this ?

 

[AnandLeo]

What the government seems to ignore about fishing dispute is, the social, economic, and environmental costs to UK of negotiated arrangement of shared access to fishing waters is insignificant compared with the overall costs to UK of a no deal Brexit. The negotiations are locked in with the symbolic, ideological values of territorial waters, not the pragmatic social, economic, and environmental costs and benefits of the fishing resources. Relaxing fishing rights is a trade-off for access to single market and overall benefits of a Brexit deal. An amicable agreement reached on compromise, and economics is not renunciation of UK’s legal rights. Hypothetically, UK can leave the Brexit agreements unilaterally on a future date if the situation arise, along with reciprocal social, economic and other consequences.

 

[killer b]

What the government seems to ignore about fishing dispute is, the social, economic, and environmental costs to UK of negotiated arrangement of shared access to fishing waters is insignificant compared with the overall costs to UK of a no deal Brexit.

they aren't actually ignoring this, they just want it to seem like they are.

 

[kabbes]

Have you a source for this ?

There’s a lot out there, but this is a good paper

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1070289X.2018.1486091

 

[Winot]

Gossip but he is quite well-connected: