The amount and pace of migration to the UK is unprecedented

[Tanya1982]

I like Italy. It’s warm, there’s coffee, there’s sambucca. Money being no object, I’d go there.

Oh yes, Italy is great. When I was younger I travelled a bit around the Middle East when I left school, and with the money I had left I had a little studio* near Termini Station in Rome. March to August. Six months.

I do actually have one part Italian great grandparent (from a town that subsequently became a suburb of Rome) - so had a nativist gang driven me out of what is a very densely populated area, I could've tried that.

Where in Italy would you ideally settle do you think? Parts are no friendlier than parts of Britain, and the cities are very densely populated, so it's possible your immigrant dream might end up on the end of a pitchfork.

*I don't think I've ever felt so lonely as I did during the first few days and nights. There was a couple across the back whose domestic violence disputes echoed in sort of stereo surround sound style. Then I loved it.

 

[mojo pixy]

We don’t oppress the Albanians so don’t owe them as much as say Afghans.

What has owing people got to do with it? If we (the UK) owe people because we've fucked their country, we should pay reparations to fix their country up, so they don't feel they have to leave home. Not fuck their country more by stealing all their skilled workers. Doing that, we're still exploiting them aren't we?

On the subject of Albanians, does anyone know what the appeal of the UK is for them? As opposed to countries that are easier to get to? Since after all, they're one of the headline groups coming here (factually or not)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Re Albania, its true that applications from Albanians are second only to Iranians recently, according to this (pretty interesting set of home office stats).

And the overall rate of people from Albania being granted the right to stay here in the year ending this summer was 53%, it says.
That's a lot higher than I would have guessed.
"but for Albanian adult men the grant rate was 14% and for Albanian women and children it was 90%."
Which seems odd. Maybe the women and children already have family here idk.

Not odd. Women & children may face different hazards in Albania, where "Muslim" (in scare quotes because it's one of the "let's oppress women" types) culture has made life more difficult/hazardous for them. Similar happened in the '70s & 80s for Biafran women & children (of whatever faith) because of state oppression.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Paul Embery after 5mg diazepam and a nice glass of red?

I think Embers would need at least 50mg of mother's little helper.

 

[danny la rouge]

We don’t oppress the Albanians so don’t owe them as much as say Afghans.

I’m not comfortable with this “we” talk. It’s one of the pronouns to blame for the fascist speech made by Braverman in the first place.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is it not just sexism?

Different elements of hazard that the HO has to take account of.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What has owing people got to do with it? If we (the UK) owe people because we've fucked their country, we should pay reparations to fix their country up, so they don't feel they have to leave home. Not fuck their country more by stealing all their skilled workers. Doing that, we're still exploiting them aren't we?

This is it for me. The whole conversation is framed in a rotten way. If people are asking how the world should be, or how the UK should be, well a completely fresh way for the UK to engage with the rest of the world would be a start.

 

[bimble]

So the suicide terrorist was from High Wycombe, sort of round the corner from me in the home counties here. His internet footprint full of everything you'd expect.

 

[TopCat]

Different elements of hazard that the HO has to take account of.

Elucidate please?

 

[belboid]

On the subject of Albanians, does anyone know what the appeal of the UK is for them? As opposed to countries that are easier to get to? Since after all, they're one of the headline groups coming here (factually or not)

The Uk is a long way back for Albanian migrants. Italy & Greece take 90%, and then the USA is ahead of uk

 

[TopCat]

What has owing people got to do with it? If we (the UK) owe people because we've fucked their country, we should pay reparations to fix their country up, so they don't feel they have to leave home. Not fuck their country more by stealing all their skilled workers. Doing that, we're still exploiting them aren't we?

On the subject of Albanians, does anyone know what the appeal of the UK is for them? As opposed to countries that are easier to get to? Since after all, they're one of the headline groups coming here (factually or not)

Their crime organisations have taken over much of the drug trade here inc growing weed, importing and selling coke. They are in their ascendency and opportunities abound for Albanian men. I know a fair few and they are all well at it. Don’t know any women and kids from there.

 

[Tanya1982]

What has owing people got to do with it? If we (the UK) owe people because we've fucked their country, we should pay reparations to fix their country up, so they don't feel they have to leave home. Not fuck their country more by stealing all their skilled workers. Doing that, we're still exploiting them aren't we?

On the subject of Albanians, does anyone know what the appeal of the UK is for them? As opposed to countries that are easier to get to? Since after all, they're one of the headline groups coming here (factually or not)

Haven't they always been attracted to the UK? When I first moved back to the UK as an adult and had my first non student flat in this country, I lived in Bayswater (the guy downstairs insisted it was Notting Hill, which it completely wasn't) and all anyone was talking about was Albanian card cloning gangs. The stretch of Queensway between the casino and Barclays was actually quite sketchy, even during the middle of the day - but generally, not specific to the Albanian pimps.

I noticed them because I'd been living in Athens, which really was busy with Albanians, and so I was kind of tuned in to their language. I never had any problem with any of them. Queensway is so touristy I would imagine it's been pickpocket central since practically every Albanian was locked down under Hoxha and had never considered they'd ever see London, so it's hardly something unique to Albanians. I don't see the need for the hysteria about them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Blaming everyone in the hospitals
Blaming everyone at the bottom of the English Channel
Blaming everyone who doesn't look like a fried animal

 

[danny la rouge]

I blame Rita Ora and Dua Lipa.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Elucidate please?

Women & children can be forcibly trafficked more easily. Women & children are easier to rape than men. Women & children can be oppressed via religion more easily because most organised religions are patriarchal.

 

[TopCat]

Blaming everyone in the hospitals
Blaming everyone at the bottom of the English Channel
Blaming everyone who doesn't look like a fried animal

Is this a quote or your words?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Blaming everyone in the hospitals
Blaming everyone at the bottom of the English Channel
Blaming everyone who doesn't look like a fried animal

As a final line you could have "Blaming everyone who might have ever seen a camel".

 

[danny la rouge]

Is this a quote or your words?

Orbital.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As a final line you could have "Blaming everyone who might have ever seen a camel".

That would work. Next lines are:

This is espionage
And you're the self-saboteur

 

[TopCat]

Orbital.

Is that a rock and roll band?

 

[Tanya1982]

Their crime organisations have taken over much of the drug trade here inc growing weed, importing and selling coke. They are in their ascendency and opportunities abound for Albanian men. I know a fair few and they are all well at it. Don’t know any women and kids from there.

Maybe you should work for the home office.

 

[danny la rouge]

Is that a rock and roll band?

Popular beat combo.

 

[TopCat]

Maybe you should work for the home office.

Why? Acknowledging my Albanian aquaintences are all criminals is a matter of fact. I met them cos of crime so it’s no surprise. I don’t then ascribe criminality to all Albanians. I am not a right wing bigot so why would I work for the HO?

 

[Tanya1982]

Why? Acknowledging my Albanian aquaintences are all criminals is a matter of fact. I met them cos of crime so it’s no surprise. I don’t then ascribe criminality to all Albanians. I am not a right wing bigot so why would I work for the HO?

You said it to me, and I'm not one either, so I was only returning the favour. Just being friendly, so sit down.

 

[teuchter]

Why does the "open borders" hypothetical scenario always come up in these discussions?

Well, because (apart from the fact that there are urban75 posters who have at various points in the past said they support the principle in a non hypothetical way) it's a way of trying to get at some idea of whether there is a "reasonable" limit to the amount of immigration that the UK should allow, or not.

Most people are reluctant to say what amount they think is "too much" or how they would try and determine that amount, probably because they will be accused of xenophobia within a microsecond of making such a statement.

The closest we have got on this thread is some kind of constraint based on land area for agriculture.

If someone's reply is that "it's a silly question because whatever that number is, we will never reach it" then it seems natural to ask whether that applies even if there were no borders at all, because that's where you end up at if you progressively increase the numbers, with no point being the point at which you say "ok maybe we are reaching a number which is too high".

That's because otherwise, aren't we basically saying that the number will always be constrained by what the population/electorate/establishment/whatever will tolerate (based partly on xenophobic instincts), so there's not much point considering what the implications of going beyond that would be, whilst simultaneously arguing to persuade the population/electorate/establishment/whatever that we should be allowing substantially more immigration than at present.

If you want to persuade someone sceptical that we should be allowing a lot more immigration than we currently do then you should have some sort of answer to the inevitable question of "how much more". That's a question I always feel unequipped to answer, because most discussions about trying to come up with some number seem to end up getting shut down with accusations of racism and so on.

 

[TopCat]

You said it to me, and I'm not one either, so I was only returning the favour. Just being friendly, so sit down.

You are not being friendly. More projecting shit onto others.

 

[ska invita]

So the suicide terrorist was from High Wycombe, sort of round the corner from me in the home counties here. His internet footprint full of everything you'd expect.

Question Time?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why does the "open borders" hypothetical scenario always come up in these discussions?

Well, because (apart from the fact that there are urban75 posters who have at various points in the past said they support the principle in a non hypothetical way) it's a way of trying to get at some idea of whether there is a "reasonable" limit to the amount of immigration that the UK should allow, or not.

Most people are reluctant to say what amount they think is "too much" or how they would try and determine that amount, probably because they will be accused of xenophobia within a microsecond of making such a statement.

The closest we have got on this thread is some kind of constraint based on land area for agriculture.

If someone's reply is that "it's a silly question because whatever that number is, we will never reach it" then it seems natural to ask whether that applies even if there were no borders at all, because that's where you end up at if you progressively increase the numbers, with no point being the point at which you say "ok maybe we are reaching a number which is too high".

That's because otherwise, aren't we basically saying that the number will always be constrained by what the population/electorate/establishment/whatever will tolerate (based partly on xenophobic instincts), so there's not much point considering what the implications of going beyond that would be, whilst simultaneously arguing to persuade the population/electorate/establishment/whatever that we should be allowing substantially more immigration than at present.

If you want to persuade someone sceptical that we should be allowing a lot more immigration than we currently do then you should have some sort of answer to the inevitable question of "how much more". That's a question I always feel unequipped to answer, because most discussions about trying to come up with some number seem to end up getting shut down with accusations of racism and so on.

It's not a fixed number, that's why. Even on your terms - finding a number that would be acceptable to people (which people, where?) - a toxic public debate involving a moral panic around, for instance, Albanian men is going to affect the number. Post-brexit referendum, the result was leapt on by those who claimed it showed that a majority in the UK favoured tighter immigration controls. It did no such thing, but in the end both Tory and Labour leadership came to talk as if it did. The terms of the debate have been set by those who push the 'too many' claim.

Should the debate even be framed in terms of numbers? Is it time to reclaim and reframe the debate in human terms?

 

[bimble]

I don't know if numbers is the thing, no numerical answer would stop people's worries.
It's mostly a worry about scarcity, how will there be enough to go round (enough housing decent jobs nhs beds etc, because there's already not).

But one of the consequences of refusing to even try to engage seriously or in detail with these sorts of worries is that it means the stage is left totally free for the worst people, who will happily talk about the perils of 'uncontrolled immigration' very loudly all day long, in newspapers house of commons on tv, pretty much unopposed.

Which arguably is why we have this national conversation going on in the first place about a "migrant crisis" in the Uk, in a vacuum they've been left to create a moral panic.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

At the very least, the fact that the UK takes in relatively few refugees needs to be publicised. I suspect that a lot of people do not know that. And then the argument can be made that the UK should be taking in more, not fewer.