The amount and pace of migration to the UK is unprecedented

[Tanya1982]

Why does the "open borders" hypothetical scenario always come up in these discussions?

Well, because (apart from the fact that there are urban75 posters who have at various points in the past said they support the principle in a non hypothetical way) it's a way of trying to get at some idea of whether there is a "reasonable" limit to the amount of immigration that the UK should allow, or not.

Most people are reluctant to say what amount they think is "too much" or how they would try and determine that amount, probably because they will be accused of xenophobia within a microsecond of making such a statement.

The closest we have got on this thread is some kind of constraint based on land area for agriculture.

If someone's reply is that "it's a silly question because whatever that number is, we will never reach it" then it seems natural to ask whether that applies even if there were no borders at all, because that's where you end up at if you progressively increase the numbers, with no point being the point at which you say "ok maybe we are reaching a number which is too high".

That's because otherwise, aren't we basically saying that the number will always be constrained by what the population/electorate/establishment/whatever will tolerate (based partly on xenophobic instincts), so there's not much point considering what the implications of going beyond that would be, whilst simultaneously arguing to persuade the population/electorate/establishment/whatever that we should be allowing substantially more immigration than at present.

If you want to persuade someone sceptical that we should be allowing a lot more immigration than we currently do then you should have some sort of answer to the inevitable question of "how much more". That's a question I always feel unequipped to answer, because most discussions about trying to come up with some number seem to end up getting shut down with accusations of racism and so on.

And so, then you do what? Because that applies equally to the world - people have been having the 'how much is too much?' conversation for a long time. Nobody gas come up with an answer that doesn't involve totalitarianism, fascism, genocide, eugenics, reproductive control. So what's your answer? How do you reduce the surplus population before some law of physics is reached and the world kills us all? You want answers, but you haven't offered any.

 

[Pickman's model]

And so, then you do what? Because that applies equally to the world - people have been having the 'how much is too much?' conversation for a long time. Nobody gas come up with an answer that doesn't involve totalitarianism, fascism, genocide, eugenics, reproductive control. So what's your answer? How do you reduce the surplus population before some law of physics is reached and the world kills us all? You want answers, but you haven't offered any.

Teuchter doesn't have any answers

 

[Tanya1982]

You are not being friendly. More projecting shit onto others.

I'm projecting nothing. I've said what I've got to say, about this, to you, in answer to you, directly.

 

[Tanya1982]

Teuchter doesn't have any answers

What've you got? That's the second or third time in this one thread you've picked at him or her, for nothing really.

 

[ska invita]

At the very least, the fact that the UK takes in relatively few refugees needs to be publicised. I suspect that a lot of people do not know that. And then the argument can be made that the UK should be taking in more, not fewer.

sure, agree, but the biggest argument is why are there so many refugees and what is the UKs role in that?

 

[Pickman's model]

What've you got? That's the second or third time in this one thread you've picked at him or her, for nothing really.

I haven't picked at him at all. My statements have been simple facts. But I bet he's glad at your white knighting

 

[bimble]

This person is willing to give an answer, he thinks the correct number for the uk is 10 million total population.
That’s the thing with only the shittest people being happy to engage with this sort of question at all.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

sure, agree, but the biggest argument is why are there so many refugees and what is the UKs role in that?

Yep, absolutely. As I said earlier, any debate about refugees coming to the UK has to include addressing the way the UK is in the world and how that needs to change.

And that's the answer to Teuchter really. I don't accept the terms in which he frames his questions.

 

[belboid]

At the very least, the fact that the UK takes in relatively few refugees needs to be publicised. I suspect that a lot of people do not know that. And then the argument can be made that the UK should be taking in more, not fewer.

And this cuts to the bullshit rhetoric about how accepting almost any refugee is wrong because they have to pass through ‘safe countries’ to get here and they should be applying there.

But there’s no such law, not in uk or European law. It’s just an excuse to claim they can’t be ‘real’ refugees or they’d have claimed earlier. Absolute bullshit.

 

[Pickman's model]

This person is willing to give an answer, he thinks the correct number for the uk is 10 million total population.
That’s the thing with only the shittest people being happy to engage with this sort of question at all.

The way to depopulate and get rid of people like that is just to kill anyone who proposes such solutions as Johnson proffers here

 

[teuchter]

I don't know if numbers is the thing, no numerical answer would stop people's worries.
It's mostly a worry about scarcity, how will there be enough to go round (enough housing decent jobs nhs beds etc, because there's already not).

But one of the consequences of refusing to even try to engage seriously or in detail with these sorts of worries is that it means the stage is left totally free for the worst people, who will happily talk about the perils of 'uncontrolled immigration' very loudly all day long, in newspapers house of commons on tv, pretty much unopposed.

Which arguably is why we have this national conversation going on in the first place about a "migrant crisis" in the Uk, in a vacuum they've been left to create a moral panic.

View attachment 349836

That chart shows asylum applicants per capita - rather than all immigrants per capita, right?

Discussions often end up getting the two confused.

I believe that if you look at the immigrant population of the UK, it's actually a little higher than the EU average. It's not very different from, say, France or Germany. I think.

 

[Tanya1982]

It's not a fixed number, that's why. Even on your terms - finding a number that would be acceptable to people (which people, where?) - a toxic public debate involving a moral panic around, for instance, Albanian men is going to affect the number. Post-brexit referendum, the result was leapt on by those who claimed it showed that a majority in the UK favoured tighter immigration controls. It did no such thing, but in the end both Tory and Labour leadership came to talk as if it did. The terms of the debate have been set by those who push the 'too many' claim.

Should the debate even be framed in terms of numbers? Is it time to reclaim and reframe the debate in human terms?

I think there's a lot in that.

Earlier, it was discussed that Scotland might prefer a different approach, targeted to its wishes. Perhaps it should be allowed to, without Suella Braverman dictating what it will have to suffer to save her career. A process of consultation, with Scottish councils, asking what kind of numbers they'd like over the next ten years (to start), and what/how that could be accommodated. That would be a human start.

On Channel 4 News last night, there was a man who lived in Dover being interviewed. He was fixing spikes to his garden wall, and declared 'they won't be coming in here, whatever happens, they won't be getting in here'. It seems shortsighted and fucking inhumane that there's a part of the U.K. crying out for the opportunity of more people, while the government in charge is totally in hock to an old fool like that.

 

[elbows]

And so, then you do what? Because that applies equally to the world - people have been having the 'how much is too much?' conversation for a long time. Nobody gas come up with an answer that doesn't involve totalitarianism, fascism, genocide, eugenics, reproductive control. So what's your answer? How do you reduce the surplus population before some law of physics is reached and the world kills us all? You want answers, but you haven't offered any.

There are lots of different population growth projections, many of which involve upcoming peaks or plateaus. Factors of the non-totalitarian variety involve development, poverty, child mortality rates, womens education, family planning and other variables that can affect fertility rates. There are plenty of unknowns including whether the globalisation project has really stalled and starts to undo.

One potential starting point for this topic:

Human population projections - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tanya1982]

I haven't picked at him at all. My statements have been simple facts. But I bet he's glad at your white knighting

No doubt he's completely thrilled. That's fantastic.

 

[teuchter]

And so, then you do what? Because that applies equally to the world - people have been having the 'how much is too much?' conversation for a long time. Nobody gas come up with an answer that doesn't involve totalitarianism, fascism, genocide, eugenics, reproductive control. So what's your answer? How do you reduce the surplus population before some law of physics is reached and the world kills us all? You want answers, but you haven't offered any.

I don't have an answer or pretend to have one.

 

[Tanya1982]

There are lots of different population growth projections, many of which involve upcoming peaks or plateaus. Factors of the non-totalitarian variety involve development, poverty, child mortality rates, womens education, family planning and other variables that can affect fertility rates. There are plenty of unknowns including whether the globalisation project has really stalled and starts to undo.

One potential starting point for this topic:

Human population projections - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, every single one of those is a long way to being solved purely by educating women. It knocks onto all the other factors in a virtuous chain. But the UK is in no position to carp when it slashes foreign aid that could've been directed towards that, or while people in Britain prefer to divert onto the Albanian coke dealers they know.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't have an answer or pretend to have one.

I'm not even sure you have a question, tbh.

 

[bimble]

That chart shows asylum applicants per capita - rather than all immigrants per capita, right?

Discussions often end up getting the two confused.

I believe that if you look at the immigrant population of the UK, it's actually a little higher than the EU average. It's not very different from, say, France or Germany. I think.

yep, i think thats this chart, which says we have slightly more immigrants than france, slightly less than germany or spain.


The degree to which there's a moral panic about immigration is probably more closely linked to whether or not you have a daily mail type newspaper than to these figures though.

 

[mojo pixy]

Their crime organisations have taken over much of the drug trade here inc growing weed, importing and selling coke. They are in their ascendency and opportunities abound for Albanian men. I know a fair few and they are all well at it. Don’t know any women and kids from there.

Just another reason for never taking cocaine. There's nothing good about it and ultimately it's users who are to blame for the trade.

Growing weed, I'm disappointed we can't manage that ourselves.

We're like parasites aren't we? Drug addicted parasites, importing criminals because they work cheaper ffs.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The way to depopulate and get rid of people like that is just to kill anyone who proposes such solutions as Johnson proffers here

Some dickhead near me has slogans about needing to reduce the human population to save the environment painted on his car. His petrol-burning, planet killing car.

Because I'm actually a decent person, I have resisted the temptation to leave a note under his windscreen wiper saying 'fucking kill yourself then' even though it's the only context where that could ever be a just or appropriate thing to say.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Teuchter doesn't have any answers

Teuchter ASKS the questions

 

[Tanya1982]

Just another reason for never taking cocaine. There's nothing good about it and ultimately it's users who are to blame for the trade.

Growing weed, I'm disappointed we can't manage that ourselves.

We're like parasites aren't we? Drug addicted parasites, importing criminals because they work cheaper ffs.

Unbelievably sexist of him to assume it's just the men. Everyone knows women are far less likely to be stopped and searched, and subsequently far less likely to be arrested, and therefore ultimately far less likely lose the product/profit. Nobody worth their salt wouldn't have female couriers, sellers, lookouts, and lures. Evidently the Albanian dealers of this persons acquaintance are just plain bad business people.

 

[Edie]

If I could live anywhere in the world (and actually had the ability to learn a second language) it would be Crete. I’ve been twice with the boys and it is quite easily the most beautiful place I’ve ever been, with the best food, and the Greece’s culture and history is awesome. I don’t know much about their society mind you.

I don’t know what I think about immigration anymore am really on the fence about the degree we should limit it, so this has been an interesting read.

 

[danny la rouge]

yep, i think thats this chart, which says we have slightly more immigrants than france, slightly less than germany or spain.

View attachment 349840
The degree to which there's a moral panic about immigration is probably more closely linked to whether or not you have a daily mail type newspaper than to these figures though.

Interestingly, according to this chart, Luxembourg has 47% foreign born population as a share of total population. Virtually parity. And, unless I’ve missed the news, without being “destabilised”. The current population density of Luxembourg in 2022 is 250.04 people per square km.

 

[Tanya1982]

If I could live anywhere in the world (and actually had the ability to learn a second language) it would be Crete. I’ve been twice with the boys and it is quite easily the most beautiful place I’ve ever been, with the best food, and the Greece’s culture and history is awesome. I don’t know much about their society mind you.

I don’t know what I think about immigration anymore am really on the fence about the degree we should limit it, so this has been an interesting read.

I've never been. I have some bleached terracotta pots from there. I'd like more but they're so expensive now. I was looking earlier in the year and couldn't see any for under £700. I paid nothing like that for mine.

Interestingly, according to this chart, Luxembourg has 47% foreign born population as a share of total population. Virtually parity. And, unless I’ve missed the news, without being “destabilised”. The current population density of Luxembourg in 2022 is 250.04 people per square km.

Qatar, Bahrain, and I think some of the Emirates are over 90% foreign born, and they seem to keep control just fine - whether that's a positive is another matter. They're harder pressed for water etc than we are too.

 

[danny la rouge]

I've never been. I have some bleached terracotta pots from there. I'd like more but they're so expensive now. I was looking earlier in the year and couldn't see any for under £700. I paid nothing like that for mine.


Qatar, Bahrain, and I think some of the Emirates are over 90% foreign born, and they seem to keep control just fine - whether that's a positive is another matter. They're harder pressed for water etc than we are too.

On balance, I think I’m in favour of Qatar, Bahrain and the Emirates being destabilised.

 

[TopCat]

Unbelievably sexist of him to assume it's just the men. Everyone knows women are far less likely to be stopped and searched, and subsequently far less likely to be arrested, and therefore ultimately far less likely lose the product/profit. Nobody worth their salt wouldn't have female couriers, sellers, lookouts, and lures. Evidently the Albanian dealers of this persons acquaintance are just plain bad business people.

I don't assume anything. I don't know any Albanian women. You just come out with scatter gun crap.

 

[Tanya1982]

I don't assume anything. I don't know any Albanian women. You just come out with scatter gun crap.

Whatever you like.

 

[Tanya1982]

On balance, I think I’m in favour of Qatar, Bahrain and the Emirates being destabilised.

We'll see how everything pans out.

 

[Spymaster]

On balance, I think I’m in favour of Qatar, Bahrain and the Emirates being destabilised.

The Emirates being held up as representative of anything but disgusting regarding immigration is laughable. Ethnically 30% Arab with the majority of the remainder comprised of South Asians who are virtually (and actually in many cases) treated as slaves.