SWP: Mother of all splits looms?

[audiotech]

No offence, but, big fucking deal.

Really.

Most of us here could I'm sure reel off an activist CV to order, but really what does it prove or achieve?

The vast majority of people in the UK aren't impressed, don't care much for our arguments (be they communist or anarchist or whatever) and are not likely to be drawn into a movement where martyrdom is feted.

If you really think that someone on this thread has a less valid opinion beacuae of their lack of activism then say so. And say why.

The left of whatever stripe is at a lower ebb than any of us can remember, we must examine why, and stop pretending that sheer force of activity will change this.

Perhaps its time to stop and take a look around before we miss something.

'Big fucking deal', load of spiel. Somebody implied that I was projecting my lack of activity. I put them in the picture and that's for anybody else who thinks their a smartarse.

Martyrdom? You are fucking desperate with that one. I've got more important things to do than go on some religious inspired suicide mission ffs.

It's only by acting on the world, in a collective sense, that changes anything. You ought to try it sometime, you might learn something. Then you might be worth listening to and your opinion more valid, rather than me having to suffer the banal, philosophical meanderings you're putting forward here.

Are you usually this boring?

 

[audiotech]

Aside from the pretty much the whole fecking thread!

Alright then, point to where I've avoided a well put point using that which I've been accused of?

 

[TremulousTetra]

the points are ignored, because the keyboard cynics are so seething in hatered, and/or thick, they cant engage in reasoned discussion. look at my last respondent.

 

[audiotech]

Callinicos weighs in.

John’s behaviour is nothing short of a scandal. It is time that this conflict was brought to an end. That is why I support the CC’s decision not to recommend John for re-election.

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3209#more-3209

 

[Fedayn]

Callinicos weighs in.



http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3209#more-3209

I think the term 'weighs in' is a slight underestimation of what he does here, more like 'wades in with his size nines and delivers a weighty kick to Rees bollocks'.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

And now Lindsey German has thrown in her tuppence worth.
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3210

The thing that really rankles is the following sentence:

"If white socialists had been elected in 2006 in Newham and Tower Hamlets (as they very nearly were) then the balance of forces and level of politics in those areas would have been raised."

So what does this remark mean? Do the SWP really believe that asian socialists are not capable of raising the 'level of politics'? The mind boggles....

Reminder: 15 Respect councillors were elected in 2006 in Newham and Tower Hamlets. All were asian. Two in tower Hamlets joined the SWP shortly after the election. Two others continued to work with them, and the four split from Respect in 2007 in a press conference hosted by John Rees at the height of the SWP's claim that they were being witch-hunted out of Respect. One of these subsequently became the national chair of the SWP's 'I-Can't-Believe-it's-not-Respect' aka Left List. All four subsequently resigned from the SWP/Left List, one to the Tories, three to New Labour.

 

[butchersapron]

Nake racism i say.

 

[audiotech]

Middle class stupidity more like.

 

[butchersapron]

Stupid Middle class racism. Feel daft yet?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

German has some pretty harsh stuff to say about the state of the organisation. She says that only 600 or so attended pre-conference aggregates and that most of the paper membership is entirely inactive.

 

[butchersapron]

Middle class stupidity more like.

from a SWP member and one of the leading lights of the STWC and RESPECT? How'd she mange to hide it that long? How'd she mange to climb those heights?


I don't expect a single ounce of political reflection from you so the question is directed outwards.

 

[butchersapron]

German has some pretty harsh stuff to say about the state of the organisation. She says that only 600 or so attended pre-conference aggregates and that most of the paper membership is entirely inactive.

Aside from the facts she lets slip or that support slips by others her one is so weak one every level. It reads like a mangerial document of someone facing some bollocks. It's not a marxist document in any way at all. It's barely poltical. Every issue is dealt with by the forumala

did we? (and by we, i mean her and JOhn Rees)
yes, we right to
no, we right not to

or 'we right to be wrong' (see also Harman's weak document)

The CC majority is arguing in the exact same form.

A lovely democracy comission to hive it away into the long grass seems to be the answer. Gee i wonder what the makeup will be?

 

[JHE]

And now Lindsey German has thrown in her tuppence worth.
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3210

The thing that really rankles is the following sentence:

"If white socialists had been elected in 2006 in Newham and Tower Hamlets (as they very nearly were) then the balance of forces and level of politics in those areas would have been raised."

So what does this remark mean? Do the SWP really believe that asian socialists are not capable of raising the 'level of politics'? The mind boggles....

Reminder: 15 Respect councillors were elected in 2006 in Newham and Tower Hamlets. All were asian. Two in tower Hamlets joined the SWP shortly after the election. Two others continued to work with them, and the four split from Respect in 2007 in a press conference hosted by John Rees at the height of the SWP's claim that they were being witch-hunted out of Respect. One of these subsequently became the national chair of the SWP's 'I-Can't-Believe-it's-not-Respect' aka Left List. All four subsequently resigned from the SWP/Left List, one to the Tories, three to New Labour.

Lindsey G's comment does read as if F_G's interpretation were reasonable - and frankly I do find it quite funny that it should come from her.

However, as well as having a laugh we could try to understand what Lindsey G's trying to say. It's not difficult. She is NOT suggesting that Asian socialists are somehow inferior to European socialists. She is implicitly admitting something that she and her comrades would not admit at the time (and F_G still won't admit): that the Bangladeshis elected for al-Respeq in the East End were not really elected as socialists but as Bengali Muslims and that in most, if not all, cases they are not socialists.

Oliur Rahman may have been an exception. He was the first East End councillor elected for al-Respeq and was or is a left-inclined trade union activist and, in any case, is, I gather, a decent young man. IIRC, he has described himself as 'not very religious'. That's about as far as someone from a Muslim background could go without being threatened with execution for apostasy. He's now in the Labour Party and, I believe, views his ex-comrades in al-Respeq as right-wing Bangladeshi communalists.

 

[audiotech]

from a SWP member and one of the leading lights of the STWC and RESPECT? How'd she mange to hide it that long? How'd she mange to climb those heights?


I don't expect a single ounce of political reflection from you so the question is directed outwards.

I first saw German at a Skegness rally in 1978, sat at a table eating lunch with Tony Cliff. I thought pretty girl, but looks as though she just stepped out of a finishing school.

I reflected politically on both German and then Rees many years ago and thought hmmm not impressed?

Neither are racists - that charge is absurd, but as leaders of a party that holds to the tradition of revolutionary Marxism, both have been found wanting.

 

[JHE]

Neither are racists - that charge is absurd, but as leaders of a party that holds to the tradition of revolutionary Marxism, both have been found wanting.

Through the years when that pair were up to their necks in the daft Islamo-Trot project that was al-Respeq:

(i) Did you (I mean you personally, MC5) disagree with what they were doing? I don't remember your saying so.

(ii) Did any of their current critics in the Social Workers Party (on the CC or not) disagree with what they were doing? If some did, who were they and where did they express their disagreement?

 

[audiotech]

.. the Bangladeshis elected for al-Respeq in the East End were not really elected as socialists but as Bengali Muslims and that in most, if not all, cases they are not socialists.

Most written off as not possible to be won over to socialism by you then or now?

 

[butchersapron]

For people not in the BNP:

If white socialists had been elected in 2006 in Newham and Tower Hamlets (as they very nearly were) then the balance of forces and level of politics in those areas would have been raised. If Gordon Brown had not flirted with calling an election in autumn 2007 then maybe Galloway would not have attacked so rapidly.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Aside from the facts she lets slip or that support slips by others her one is so weak one every level. It reads like a mangerial document of someone facing some bollocks. It's not a marxist document in any way at all.

It really does stick to the organisational and bureaucratic all right.

 

[audiotech]

Through the years when that pair were up to their necks in the daft Islamo-Trot project that was al-Respeq:

(i) Did you (I mean you personally, MC5) disagree with what they were doing? I don't remember your saying so.

(ii) Did any of their current critics in the Social Workers Party (on the CC or not) disagree with what they were doing? If some did, who were they and where did they express their disagreement?

Work tomorrow, so I'll be brief, whilst avoiding your crude caricature.

I saw it as important to avoid having an anti-war movement that was split between Muslims and non-Muslims. At the same time, to pull the most politicised of those in the Muslim community away from pressure to side with the Islamacists and turn towards the left, as some clearly did.

 

[butchersapron]

That it?

That's literally nothing.

 

[butchersapron]

Luckily the white socialist party are shutting up shop in that area anyway.

 

[In Bloom]

he has described himself as 'not very religious'. That's about as far as someone from a Muslim background could go without being threatened with execution for apostasy.

What utter fucking bollocks

 

[audiotech]

Luckily the white socialist party are shutting up shop in that area anyway.

That's literally from somone who appears to have been on the juice?

Merry fucking xmas.

 

[Zeppo]

JHE the Oli Rahman comment are u serious? He goes from Respect (anti the Iraq war) to New Labour (pro the Iraq war). I think this is called careerism which for him will be a short one.

L. German "white socilaists" quote is a disagrace. On the SU blog, Davidson, Molyneux. Rees, Callinicos and now German. Debate is healthy but SWP democratic centralism, top down control freakery, many expulsions. Their lack of owning up to leaving Respect "oh it was a witchunt - not.

Means this debate is meaningless. SWP may split but my money is on - it will be smaller, more irrelevant. The recession and forthcoming general election will blow away SWP and other left sects away. A pity we need a left response now and in the year ahead.

 

[mutley]

Rees and now Germans estimates of decreasing activity by SWP members are the rhetoric of a faction fight and should be judged accordingly.

As for the 'white socialists' coment, it's a bad formulation, intended (in my view) to express the view that if more candidates of a different ethnicity had been elected then the argument that respect was a Muslim party would have been weakened. A bad formulation of a correct idea, and, remember, it is supposed to be for an internal document

 

[treelover]

#80, #81: Hello, I am honourable LYNDSEY GERMAN tragically widow of MR JOHN REES National Secretary of Respect. I have 900,000,000,000 Great Britain Pounds in direct debit membership fees that I must urgently escape from the country. Please sirs I command that you send your passport and banking details to me so I can complete this transaction, if you can help I will grant to you 100,000,000,000 Great Britain Pounds, I write to you as your comments on the blog prove you to be a clearsighted and skeptical disposed gentlemen. Thank you.

From the SU Blog

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Rees and now Germans estimates of decreasing activity by SWP members are the rhetoric of a faction fight and should be judged accordingly

They are the words of people who, unlike rank and file SWP members, are actually in a position to know. Tell us mutley, is German right that in or around 600 people attended your series of national aggregates?

The answer is you don't know because you weren't at more than one of them (if that) and there are no reliable reports available to you, while German, Rees and their close allies were represented at all of them (with the exception of Sheffield). There have now been responses to both Rees and German from other CC members and nobody has quibbled at all with their numbers claims. If they were lying for factional advantage their opponents would certainly have put the boot in on this question.

 

[mutley]

They are the words of people who, unlike rank and file SWP members, are actually in a position to know. Tell us mutley, is German right that in or around 600 people attended your series of national aggregates?

The answer is you don't know because you weren't at more than one of them (if that) and there are no reliable reports available to you, while German, Rees and their close allies were represented at all of them (with the exception of Sheffield). There have now been responses to both Rees and German from other CC members and nobody has quibbled at all with their numbers claims. If they were lying for factional advantage their opponents would certainly have put the boot in on this question.

Rees said a sixth, then German said a tenth. Maybe by conference someone will have come up with an even smaller fraction. I'm not taking either estimate too seriously. The one I was at had about a third of those who could have attended, which seems way out on the tail of the bell curve if they were right.
to be honest, even a sixth is not a completely unrespectable figure, it would mean a thousand members had taken an active part in the conference discussions. Could be more, but could be a damn sight less.

Anyway I'm also not sure that Rees has got enough supporters to tell him how many members were at all the aggregates.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Rees said a sixth, then German said a tenth.

Which gives us a range from 600 to 1,000. You seem to regard the upper end of that range as representing a good turn out which, to put it mildly, would come as something of a surprise to anyone who thinks that the SWP has 6,100 members.

I should point out, I suppose, that when the WRP had its first (and last) outbreak of discussion in the mid 1980s that paper membership claims in the order of 6,000 were exposed as lies and fantasies when they could only get 900 to their national aggregates. That appears to be at the upper end of what the SWP can muster.

 

[Random]

As for the 'white socialists' coment, it's a bad formulation, intended (in my view) to express the view that if more candidates of a different ethnicity had been elected then the argument that respect was a Muslim party would have been weakened. A bad formulation of a correct idea, and, remember, it is supposed to be for an internal document

It seems to mean 'if we'd got more proper SWP members elected then those Muslims wouldn't have split off to join Galloway.' Which might in fact be true but also ignores the fact that the reason the SWP-let respect got councillors elected in London in the first place was because they did not stand on a SWP-style platform. And look at Rees' own failure to get elected.

btw I like the way as soon as someone is dropped from the CC they become just a 'faction fighter' and anything they say can be ignored if you like.