SWP: Mother of all splits looms?

[Spion]

2. A national strike or war would lead to difference not paralysis; the difference might lead to post conference division.

IE, it'd be too late

3. It was not any general and enduring characteristics of capitalism that determined the organisational form of democratic centralism, but rather the particular demands of the Tsarist state and the available means of organisation, information exchange and debate.

Sorry, I don't accept the premise. You'll need to convince me of that and also why DC is innapropriate now.

4. The SWP doesn't practice it's particular version of dc in order to protect it's non-UK co thinkers; for you to suggest this is risible..

I haven't suggested that and it's either sloppy or dishonest of you to suggest I did. I'm not in the SWP, never have been and wouldn't suggest their practice of so-called DC is worthy of the name

5. My model was rushed off to make a point to RMP3 that alternatives to dc can easily be imagined. Even my feeble efforts have proved to be more than up to that job; which should be a real worry to the proponents of dc on these boards.

You can congratulate youself all you like but that's no way to further discussion between us

 

[TremulousTetra]

IE, it'd be too late

Sorry, I don't accept the premise. You'll need to convince me of that and also why DC is innapropriate now.

I haven't suggested that and it's either sloppy or dishonest of you to suggest I did. I'm not in the SWP, never have been and wouldn't suggest their practice of so-called DC is worthy of the name

You can congratulate youself all you like but that's no way to further discussion between us

welcome to the world of Louis.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Non payment won't defeat the poll tax.

Non payment will defeat the poll tax.

Louis Macneice

your dreary selective quoting of several words out of a post, and then running off to some spurious assumption is in no way an honest method of discussion, so fuckoff you sectarian shit.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

your dreary selective quoting of several words out of a post, and then running off to some spurious assumption is in no way an honest method of discussion, so fuckoff you sectarian shit.

From happy clappy let's all work to together to fuck off you sectarian shit in a few short posts; you've done yourself proud.

By the way cat got your tongue on Stack and anarchism; go and dig through those back issues of Socialist Review you've ebb collecting under the bed for all these years.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Louis MacNeice]

IE, it'd be too late

Sorry, I don't accept the premise. You'll need to convince me of that and also why DC is innapropriate now.

I haven't suggested that and it's either sloppy or dishonest of you to suggest I did. I'm not in the SWP, never have been and wouldn't suggest their practice of so-called DC is worthy of the name

You can congratulate youself all you like but that's no way to further discussion between us

1. Why would it be too late? Actions would have taken place, who knows they may even have been co-ordinated through an adminstrative committee formed by various interested organisations precisely for that purpose.

2. You think that the Tsarist state machinery and the level of information technology had no impact on Bolshevik organisation; that's a strange sort of materialism you're into.

3. The thread is about the SWP; apologies if you weren't talking about their use of dc.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[emanymton]

I think it also removes necessary checks in an organisation and enables the worst shysters to float to the top, as it creates an ideal environment for them to manipulate.

Any chance you could elaborate on this point, as I don’t follow you logic here?

 

[mutley]

Can't the question that started this thread just be answered with a simple 'no' and then we can all get on with something more productive?

 

[JimW]

Any chance you could elaborate on this point, as I don’t follow you logic here?

Centralising the flow of information and controlling debate suits schemers, because if they capture the centre they can use demands for discipline and loyalty to stifle criticism and isolate challengers, etc. Enables the "organisation men" over the activists too imo You can see this sort of thing happen in various historical cases.

 

[Spion]

Centralising the flow of information and controlling debate suits schemers, because if they capture the centre they can use demands for discipline and loyalty to stifle criticism and isolate challengers, etc. Enables the "organisation men" over the activists too imo You can see this sort of thing happen in various historical cases.

That's a description of too much centralism without much/any democracy, so not a criticism of DC, IMO

 

[TremulousTetra]

From happy clappy let's all work to together to fuck off you sectarian shit in a few short posts; you've done yourself proud.

By the way cat got your tongue on Stack and anarchism; go and dig through those back issues of Socialist Review you've ebb collecting under the bed for all these years.

Louis MacNeice

where did I say I wouldn't work with you? Done it loads of times.

Go on, give me a link, and then take three words that the entire article to make your point.

Or instead, try engaging a few brain cells. Of course anyone with half a brain would like to see anybody deliver what we all want, communism. The goal is far more important than the SW having to deliver it.

Secondly, SW has always argued would like to see a bigger left in the labour party, communist party, militant, anarchist movement, trade unions etc. Is far better for the left to the bigger and more successful. Is just plain and simple common sense, it's just a small minded self confessed sectarians who want to see the demise of various left wing organizations.

 

[articul8]

Can't the question that started this thread just be answered with a simple 'no' and then we can all get on with something more productive?

There will be no move to oust German/Rees from the STWC leadership, even if they are not as amenable to being "directed" as they claim?

 

[AnnaKarpik]

I thought this was about weaving.

 

[TremulousTetra]

There will be no move to oust German/Rees from the STWC leadership, even if they are not as amenable to being "directed" as they claim?

you've obviously made a mistake over the split in the SW. Now apologise!

 

[articul8]

a) I never said there would be a direct break out of the ranks of the SWP of any scale. The minority is too weak as yet to organise a proper faction.

b) the CC clearly was split and everyone admits it.

c) the Rees/German axis still has its power base in the STWC leadership. Unless the new CC tells them to stand down. In which case, you might find they do jump.

 

[TremulousTetra]

a) I never said there would be a direct break out of the ranks of the SWP of any scale. The minority is too weak as yet to organise a proper faction.

b) the CC clearly was split and everyone admits it.

c) the Rees/German axis still has its power base in the STWC leadership. Unless the new CC tells them to stand down. In which case, you might find they do jump.

Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now! Apologise now!

 

[articul8]

find me a post when I predicted an apocalyptic split? Good luck...

 

[TremulousTetra]

Non payment won't defeat the poll tax.

Non payment will defeat the poll tax.

Louis Macneice

experienced many about faces, just not ones that come from " nowhere" without explanation. That is what we are arguing, is the point about democratic centralism, it's alows an about face when one is necessary quickly.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I penned a quick reply which showed an alternative to dcism which contained none of dcism's centralised executive committee control.

From there you jump to a position that seems to suggest that I am against all executive power, all the while ignoring the executive power of the conference and branches within my hastily sketched structure.

In addition your post can also be read as an attempt to place any system that includes executive control in the same organisational basket as democratic centralism. You wonder that I think you are dishonest?

Louis MacNeice

How have I been dishonest? I said here's an alternative that isn't dc.

Louis MacNeice

I wouldn't know whether or not you do support executive power, your example suggests that you don't, because it doesn't have an executive power.

So the question above remains. do you have an example of an organisation in the UK which has gained significant influence the amongst the working class that didn't have an executive?

 

[mutley]

'the CC clearly was split and everyone admits it.'

Yeah but hardly 'the mother of all splits' was it?

And as to saying there'll be a split as a result of STWC shenanigans, you can play the game of 'my prediction WILL come true - just not quite yet' all u like but few are listening.

 

[butchersapron]

And off goes virtually the entire Doncaster branch, ex-miners and all.

We believe the fulltimer's conduct is a symptom of a wider malaise. In short, the party has lost direction. It is now possible to see how you could allow a situation to develop whereby party member, Jane Loftus a CWU NEC member, could break party discipline and sell out CWU members. We were also stunned by your decision to substitute the party for Unite members and interrupt the talks between BA and Unite. This act of unwitting sectarianism led to a close contact and steward at Superdrug to be derided at work thus alienating him from the Party.

Ah, the Superdrug disgrace.

 

[The39thStep]

And off goes virtually the entire Doncaster branch, ex-miners and all.



Ah, the Superdrug disgrace.

Amazing conclusion that Counterfire is in a better position to fight the cuts and therefore this is where they will now put their energies.

 

[butchersapron]

Totally agree. It does show how the mere existence of counterfire has effected the internal life of the SWP though. Branches (some anyway) now believe they've somewhere effective to go after minor disagreement with the centre - and given the SWP's culture of an alternately overbearing and dismissive centre this will probably happen again. And the loyalists will cling even tighter to the centre and round and round they go....

 

[The39thStep]