dennisr
the acceptable face
not on these boards it ain't
SWP: Mother of all splits looms?
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not on these boards it ain't
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Fat chance!
Anyway...you're right of course, the SWP are not alone in making mistakes. Take a look at the Plane Stupid thread to see an example of a DA (or not) that generated a lot of criticism and debate.
The differences being that the SWP has until recently been in a position to shape the strategy of pretty much most campaigns when it wished to, so its mistakes had a wide repurcussion.
...and two, the almost blanket defence on here by you lot of positions that prominent SWPers are now admitting were wrong. Not something you'll see amongst the anarchos for example who seem more than happy to debate their mistakes on here (though too ooften this descends into bickering).
Perhaps most interesting though, is your reliance upon activism as a kind of defence. Something almost universally shared amongst the Left and Anarchists is a kind of moralism based upon activity. That those who are "active" have a stronger position to comment than those who are "armchair". Now, certainly there is an element of practicality about this position, involvemnet leads to more detailed knowledge of whats going on, sure. But, as the point must be to engage with those who are not currently active, then the viewpoints of those who are in that position are perhaps the most important, no?
Just a thought.
Be interested in your thoughts on this too.
Ime, its a common attitude across the board from the SWP to EF! and all in between that "active" is better, and there is a fair amount of moralism, voluntarism and substitutionism going on that is frankly utterly alienating to people who want to get involved but can't, or won't, become "activists".
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Just checking... has it split yet?
audiotech
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For the nthh time, I'm a trade union rep and lately a community activist.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
audiotech
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Enlighten me?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I've gotta go do the washing up now, but i'll get back to this tommorrow...
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I just find it a bit high and mighty when someone lays into an activist organisation for it's mistakes, whose only ever activity up to the present is to fart just before they sit down and boot up windows.
...but just as a quick example.
here you assume that there is a clear dichotomy between activists and people who do nothing.
Well surely its not thhat black and white.
and more importantly surely people are engaged in the class struggle daily as they try to survive, or go beyond survival to living, The antagonism between capital and labour remains regardless of "actvism" or consciousness,
audiotech
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...but just as a quick example.
here you assume that there is a clear dichotomy between activists and people who do nothing.
Well surely its not thhat black and white.
and more importantly surely people are engaged in the class struggle daily as they try to survive, or go beyond survival to living, The antagonism between capital and labour remains regardless of "actvism" or consciousness,
My ire is not targeted at people generally though. More at the keyboard cynics on here.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
audiotech
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Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
I just find it a bit high and mighty when someone lays into an activist organisation for it's mistakes, whose only ever activity up to the present is to fart just before they sit down and boot up windows.
Do you unconditionally support the Climate Camp and other activists then? Stop embarrassing yourself and just shut up if you can't actually defend your own politics.
audiotech
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It all depends on the activity and the politics of course, which are notable by their absence.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
That is barefaced bullshit, and you'd know that if you had actually bothered to get off your arse and get involved in the Climate Camps and the process surrounding them.
I was at a national gathering of the Climate Camp crew in London only last weekend and both those things were up for discussion and will continue to be up for discussion within the Climate Camp crew, so it's safe to say that you are absolutely wrong on both counts.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Again you're completely dodging the questions regarding moralism, volutarism and substitionism.
I genuinely would like to hear the views of people on these questions. I think its importnat, and applies to both Trots and Anarchos equally.
...as to your ire, if you'd like, as suggested, to name names, feel free. Put up, or shut up in other words!
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Again you're completely dodging the questions regarding moralism, volutarism and substitionism.
I genuinely would like to hear the views of people on these questions. I think its importnat, and applies to both Trots and Anarchos equally.
...as to your ire, if you'd like, as suggested, to name names, feel free. Put up, or shut up in other words!
you also miss out the probable many times when 'keyboard cynic' is just an excuse not to bother with the points being made. No doubt there are lots of people who just sit and moan pointlessly, but there are also those who moan a lot, but actually do something too. I mean, MC5 himself always gives me the impression he does fuck all, but he insists, and he probably isn't lying, that he's active in his union and community, but who can tell? 'Keyboard cynics' is just a handy way to ignore unwanted criticism.
And even those who are just cynical can, and normally will, be pulled back into activity at some point, and there experiences and knowledge, and cynicism, will still be valid as will their hatred of the SWP. If the MC5's cant argue against them in easy ties like this, he'll be even more useless when it really matters.
Of course there are also those who are utterly lost, and whose opinions are only worth arguing against as practise for such arguments with less scabby people. People like Zachor (or whatever name he's using this week) who are proud scabs, or Poster34, who will never do anything again, but they are still fairly few and far between.
audiotech
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So, what are the poitics of 'climate change', because I honestly don't know?
As for activity? I was phoning around today speaking to people about trying to organise at work and trying to recruit people to the union. This as a rank and file member in between doing a fucking stressful, low paid, front-line job in housing. I'm also a member of a local tenants federation.
I could mention the many past years of activity, where I have been threatened with physical violence by fascists, when involved with RAR and ANL mk1. My time organising against mass unemployment. The numerous industrial struggles I've been involved with, including the year long miners strike back in 1984. Also, the anti-poll tax campaign, in my very own community, dodging bailiffs. But then that would mean I would come under some criticism for living in the past and likely to be called an 'old git with arthritis' by at least one well known fuckwit on here.
Involvement in a 'climate change camp' darn south is out of the question just now I'm afraid.
As for 'naming names'? That is probably one of the dumbest requests I've ever had on here.
As for activity? I was phoning around today speaking to people about trying to organise at work and trying to recruit people to the union. This as a rank and file member in between doing a fucking stressful, low paid, front-line job in housing. I'm also a member of a local tenants federation.
I could mention the many past years of activity, where I have been threatened with physical violence by fascists, when involved with RAR and ANL mk1. My time organising against mass unemployment. The numerous industrial struggles I've been involved with, including the year long miners strike back in 1984. Also, the anti-poll tax campaign, in my very own community, dodging bailiffs. But then that would mean I would come under some criticism for living in the past and likely to be called an 'old git with arthritis' by at least one well known fuckwit on here.
Involvement in a 'climate change camp' darn south is out of the question just now I'm afraid.
As for 'naming names'? That is probably one of the dumbest requests I've ever had on here.
audiotech
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Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
There no set politics in the Climate Camp movement. There isn't a controlled 'party line', there's no diktat decided by some bloody Central Committee that all people involved have to work with regardless of their personal preferences (unlike the SWP, I might add). The Climate Camp folk are a cross-section of activists and concerned individuals from a wide spectrum of backgrounds and as such there is no set 'party line' that we all have to follow.
We discuss the political direction in which we're headed and, indeed, whether there ought to even be a political direction for the Climate Camps, we were doing so at the series of meetings last weekend and will do again at the next national gathering. As it is, we're currently discussing the PGA Hallmarks as a possible road to go down, but the discussions are still very much ongoing so it's not a firm commitment either way.
If you're not even interested in the issue of climate change, why are you bothering to snipe at those who are? You do the work you want to, we'll carry on doing ours.
audiotech
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I didn't say I was't interested in the issue of climate change did I?
'Snipe'? That's a good one from an expert in the field.
Yeah, I will continue in the work I do thanks. Every success in yours.
audiotech
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Well of course, but I haven't ignored any good points that way.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
So, what are the poitics of 'climate change', because I honestly don't know?
As for activity? I was phoning around today speaking to people about trying to organise at work and trying to recruit people to the union. This as a rank and file member in between doing a fucking stressful, low paid, front-line job in housing. I'm also a member of a local tenants federation.
I could mention the many past years of activity, where I have been threatened with physical violence by fascists, when involved with RAR and ANL mk1. My time organising against mass unemployment. The numerous industrial struggles I've been involved with, including the year long miners strike back in 1984. Also, the anti-poll tax campaign, in my very own community, dodging bailiffs. But then that would mean I would come under some criticism for living in the past and likely to be called an 'old git with arthritis' by at least one well known fuckwit on here.
Involvement in a 'climate change camp' darn south is out of the question just now I'm afraid.
As for 'naming names'? That is probably one of the dumbest requests I've ever had on here.
No offence, but, big fucking deal.
Really.
Most of us here could I'm sure reel off an activist CV to order, but really what does it prove or achieve?
The vast majority of people in the UK aren't impressed, don't care much for our arguments (be they communist or anarchist or whatever) and are not likely to be drawn into a movement where martyrdom is feted.
If you really think that someone on this thread has a less valid opinion beacuae of their lack of activism then say so. And say why.
The left of whatever stripe is at a lower ebb than any of us can remember, we must examine why, and stop pretending that sheer force of activity will change this.
Perhaps its time to stop and take a look around before we miss something.
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