Stop the BNP's Nazi rally in Derbyshire on Saturday 15 August (Discussion)

[durruti02]

and 2009?

This is how to stop the Nazis

mate that report by sadie robinson is really really poor, full of inaccuracies and hypebole, frankly it is embaressing.
and the other report while more accurate again is so full of cliches it is embaressing and again inaccuracies .. e.g. the EDL were NOT kettled in a car park! There were in full view of the public slap bang in front of the UKs second city's, City Hall, the object of their march. The idea that the EDL did NOT do what they wanted, that 'they did not pass' is frankly ridiculous ok no that is a bit unfair ..the EDL did not get their march but they wre happy to get their demo at the City Hall

i understand that people need to boast some times but to blatently lie and distort is simply wrong

 

[ViolentPanda]

'Self-defence is no offence' was the line and those in London were doing the same as us ooop north at the time - confronting fascists.

Whose the we?

Myself, and my local punk, ted, soul-boy and Rasta mates, people I grew up with. Local people "looking after" their community because we loved it, and no-one else gave enough of a damn to stick their neck out against the boneheads. The Swappies and other Trots were nowhere to be seen until we'd already run the NF out of several estates, and the party political mobs wanted nothing to do with anything as bluntly political as keeping racists from politically organising in the area.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Surely both tactics are of equal worth?

Calling the BNP "Nazi scum" may have been apposite 10-15 years ago, when most of them wore their withered maggot-ridden hearts on their sleeves, but they're slicker now, more polished, and it's far harder to pin the "Nazi" tail on the BNP donkey, They've made sure of that. And from what I've occasionally seen on the hard-right boards I read, the brighter among them actually revel in being called "Nazis" in public, because it seems to reflect more on the character of the name-caller than on the person being called names.
I'm all for changing the formulaic slogan (because Swappie-dom is built on formulaic slogans) to "fascist scum" or even "neo-fascist scum", both are more accurate and eminently less deniable.

 

[ViolentPanda]

and 2009?

This is how to stop the Nazis

In 2009 words have to be my weapons, seeing as I can't run due to being a crip, have a heart condition and have no feeling in my punching hand (which isn't altogether a bad thing).

As for your link...your point is?
When UAF go to the communities and tackle the BNP on the doorstep, canvassing, then I'll give them some kudos, but shouting slogans and boasting about how you beat the Nazis when you out-numbered them, that's not particularly worthy of approbation.
Does the UAF actually have any policy for tackling the BNP electorally, "on the doorstep", besides recommending that people vote Labour...
or Tory...
...or even UKIP, just as long as they don't for the "Nazi BNP"?

 

[ViolentPanda]

mate that report by sadie robinson is really really poor, full of inaccuracies and hypebole, frankly it is embaressing.

And that's being polite about it.
Same old tired rhetoric, same old tired "solutions".

and the other report while more accurate again is so full of cliches it is embaressing and again inaccuracies .. e.g. the EDL were NOT kettled in a car park! There were in full view of the public slap bang in front of the UKs second city's, City Hall, the object of their march. The idea that the EDL did NOT do what they wanted, that 'they did not pass' is frankly ridiculous ok no that is a bit unfair ..the EDL did not get their march but they wre happy to get their demo at the City Hall

i understand that people need to boast some times but to blatently lie and distort is simply wrong

Tis the "Socialist Worker" way to get a bit heavy-handed with the hyperbole.

 

[TremulousTetra]

mate that report by sadie robinson is really really poor, full of inaccuracies and hypebole, frankly it is embaressing.
and the other report while more accurate again is so full of cliches it is embaressing and again inaccuracies .. e.g. the EDL were NOT kettled in a car park! There were in full view of the public slap bang in front of the UKs second city's, City Hall, the object of their march. The idea that the EDL did NOT do what they wanted, that 'they did not pass' is frankly ridiculous ok no that is a bit unfair ..the EDL did not get their march but they wre happy to get their demo at the City Hall

i understand that people need to boast some times but to blatently lie and distort is simply wrong

OK mate, I don't know, I wasn't there.

So, was this true?

The EDL had paraded through the centre on 4 July chanting anti-Muslim slogans.

The same group had rampaged through Luton on 24 May, attacking Muslims and targeting Asian-owned businesses.

eta;
this is what was actually said.
At 6pm a huge cheer went up. The rally heard that police had kettled some 100 racists near the town hall in a car park. They would not be allowed to march into the city centre.

But tension continued to grow.

Outside the police cordon a group of some 30 thugs began to gather.

eata

look at this report
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8191833.stm

see the video. And compare the videos and reports of the previous events

 

[TremulousTetra]

Same old tired rhetoric, same old tired "solutions".

do they spend their time sneering at people whose tactics they disagree with?

At the end of the day, you are going to have to accept, you have a mono track approach, we have a twin track approach. Istead of keep bickering about it, why can't we just see which is most effective in the class struggle?

Tis the "Socialist Worker" way to get a bit heavy-handed with the hyperbole.

would it be hyperbole, to ONLY but criticise socialist worker?

 

[belboid]

At the end of the day, you are going to have to accept, you have a mono track approach, we have a twin track approach.

which one of those tracks is the 'be utterly dishonest' line? You know, like pretending you intend to 'kettle' a festival that already has a fence round it? Funny how you're ignoring that criticism, and switch onto a different subject. Points failure?

 

[Grandma Death]

Calling the BNP "Nazi scum" may have been apposite 10-15 years ago, when most of them wore their withered maggot-ridden hearts on their sleeves, but they're slicker now, more polished, and it's far harder to pin the "Nazi" tail on the BNP donkey, They've made sure of that. And from what I've occasionally seen on the hard-right boards I read, the brighter among them actually revel in being called "Nazis" in public, because it seems to reflect more on the character of the name-caller than on the person being called names.
I'm all for changing the formulaic slogan (because Swappie-dom is built on formulaic slogans) to "fascist scum" or even "neo-fascist scum", both are more accurate and eminently less deniable.

I can see both sides. I understand why sections of the left want to make that association with the Nazis-equally I can see it in some circumstances being counterproductive. I was at a friends BBQ a few weeks ago mainly populated with swappies and I had this very discussion. I argued (and rightly so) that to label the BNP as Nazis could be counterproductive because when they turn up on someones doorstep arguing about local issues and immigration potential supporters may think 'well actually they aren't nazis and seem to be talking sense'.

I think the argument needs to be won in the communities where they draw their support from but equally I think when the BNP are visible on the streets they need to be driven off and if that means chanting nazi scum so be it-as long as the battles is being fought on all fronts.

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

I can see both sides. I understand why sections of the left want to make that association with the Nazis-equally I can see it in some circumstances being counterproductive. I was at a friends BBQ a few weeks ago mainly populated with swappies and I had this very discussion. I argued (and rightly so) that to label the BNP as Nazis could be counterproductive because when they turn up on someones doorstep arguing about local issues and immigration potential supporters may think 'well actually they aren't nazis and seem to be talking sense'.

I think the argument needs to be won in the communities where they draw their support from but equally I think when the BNP are visible on the streets they need to be driven off and if that means chanting nazi scum so be it-as long as the battles is being fought on all fronts.

If the left really had a grass roots movement helping communities etc,there would be no battle to fight .The bnp would just shrink.

 

[ViolentPanda]

do they spend their time sneering at people whose tactics they disagree with?

In my experience, of course they fucking do. If your policy pronouncements were the same as the action you actually take, you've had been the vanguard of the revolution long ago, but instead you spend your time sneering and attempting to subsume any groups that "threaten" your interests.

At the end of the day, you are going to have to accept, you have a mono track approach, we have a twin track approach. Istead of keep bickering about it, why can't we just see which is most effective in the class struggle?

We know what's effective. Unity against the class enemy, and if that means physical direct action as well as "town-hall" politics then so be it.
As I recall, your mob have only just become comfortable with any sort of electoral politics, even though it would have given you a much better "handle" on finding out what "the people" want.
Wonder why that is?

would it be hyperbole, to ONLY but criticise socialist worker?

Render that in English and I might be able to answer it, but at the moment my limited understanding of the gibberish you've written your last sentence in precludes me from doing so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I can see both sides. I understand why sections of the left want to make that association with the Nazis-equally I can see it in some circumstances being counterproductive. I was at a friends BBQ a few weeks ago mainly populated with swappies and I had this very discussion. I argued (and rightly so) that to label the BNP as Nazis could be counterproductive because when they turn up on someones doorstep arguing about local issues and immigration potential supporters may think 'well actually they aren't nazis and seem to be talking sense'.

I think the argument needs to be won in the communities where they draw their support from but equally I think when the BNP are visible on the streets they need to be driven off and if that means chanting nazi scum so be it-as long as the battles is being fought on all fronts.

I'd agree if I thought that chanting "Nazi scum" at them would provoke the fascists like it used to (although not as much as if you mentioned Martin Webster's alleged sexual tastes and practices ), but it doesn't, so it's kind of become a damp squib. What "drives them off" is usually weight of numbers or (and I know that some posters disagree with this) the implicit threat of physical confrontation/direct action. You don't really need a spurious and "old hat" slogan to do that.

 

[audiotech]

Myself, and my local punk, ted, soul-boy and Rasta mates, people I grew up with. Local people "looking after" their community because we loved it, and no-one else gave enough of a damn to stick their neck out against the boneheads. The Swappies and other Trots were nowhere to be seen until we'd already run the NF out of several estates, and the party political mobs wanted nothing to do with anything as bluntly political as keeping racists from politically organising in the area.

Well that was different to the people I was active with (SWP, other trots and Labour party) some of whom were attacked, had their windows smashed, swastikas daubed etc. The first carnival (1978) saw us northerners in Brick Lane along with London comrades. The squat I stayed in the night before had been bricked by the NF coming home from the Blade Bone pub, a well known fascist haunt.

 

[Grandma Death]

If the left really had a grass roots movement helping communities etc,there would be no battle to fight .The bnp would just shrink.

I certainly would agree with some of that. I think thats a mistake some sections of the left make-a lack of prescence in the community and only showing up when the BNP do.

But I think its a mistake to assume a grass roots prescence is in itself enough...and would result in the BNP shrinking.

 

[Grandma Death]

What "drives them off" is usually weight of numbers or (and I know that some posters disagree with this) the implicit threat of physical confrontation/direct action. You don't really need a spurious and "old hat" slogan to do that.

Agreed. But I have no problem if the weight of numbers starts chanting nazi scum off the street. The slogans are a tiny part of it for me-as long as they get driven off the streets.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I'm all for changing the formulaic slogan (because Swappie-dom is built on formulaic slogans) to "fascist scum" or even "neo-fascist scum", both are more accurate and eminently less deniable.

What about "Cod-fascists!"?

 

[JimW]

What about "Cod-fascists!"?

Are you suggesting they're in league with those Nordic supremacists in the Icelandic Fisheries Protection Service?

 

[smokedout]

If the left really had a grass roots movement helping communities etc,there would be no battle to fight .The bnp would just shrink.

both Italy and Germany had strong grass roots left movements in the 20s/30's

 

[TremulousTetra]

What "drives them off" is usually weight of numbers or (and I know that some posters disagree with this) the implicit threat of physical confrontation/direct action.

Agreed! SW don't have any problem with physical confrontation/direct action, as long as it carried out by a mass of people, not as a minority.

Defence of the working class, has to be the act of the working class, to coin a phrase.

 

[kavenism]

So does anyone know how it's going?

 

[ddraig]

got a text about 30 mins ago saying "all access roads to the festival are blocked by uaf. Couple of people arrested earlier. Peaceful now."

 

[durruti02]

both Italy and Germany had strong grass roots left movements in the 20s/30's

and there are clear reasons re what sort of left wing politics it was that led to their defeat .. have you read Whilhelm Reichs The Mass Psychology of Fascism? This book provides imho the best explanation,

(an incredibly simplistic summary would be that the left tried to build by attracting kids to meetings ion the Ukrainian 5 Year Steel Production Plan while the Nazis DID attract kids by putting on parties in darkened halls .. Reich sees sex and sexual repression as a key factor in politics in this ea and quite rightly imho notes the importance of sexual repression and the father figure and need for authority in non liberated individuals as a key factor in fascism )

and agaim simplistically the left were no more liberating than the nazis .. the KPD said powwr must be vested in the upper echelons of the Party while the NSPAD actually PROMISED people real power .. of course they lied but THAT is fascism ..

 

[Slugger_O'Toole]

So does anyone know how it's going?

UAF protesters getting arrested, the UAF rabble look more thuggish than the BNP.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What about "Cod-fascists!"?

Nah, that would imply that they're not actually fascistic. Now "cod-democrats" might work!!

 

[belboid]

"Those arrests were of protesters who had been acting unlawfully," - never!

 

[dennisr]

and there are clear reasons re what sort of left wing politics it was that led to their defeat .. have you read Whilhelm Reichs The Mass Psychology of Fascism? This book provides imho the best explanation,

(an incredibly simplistic summary would be that the left tried to build by attracting kids to meetings ion the Ukrainian 5 Year Steel Production Plan while the Nazis DID attract kids by putting on parties in darkened halls .. Reich sees sex and sexual repression as a key factor in politics in this ea and quite rightly imho notes the importance of sexual repression and the father figure and need for authority in non liberated individuals as a key factor in fascism )

and agaim simplistically the left were no more liberating than the nazis .. the KPD said powwr must be vested in the upper echelons of the Party while the NSPAD actually PROMISED people real power .. of course they lied but THAT is fascism ..

fuck me, reich as as explaination of the rise of fascism!!! who my fucking word

 

[durruti02]

fuck me, reich as as explaination of the rise of fascism!!! who my fucking word

and which point of his do you actually disagree with? have you read mass psychology of fascism?

 

[belboid]

and there are clear reasons re what sort of left wing politics it was that led to their defeat .. have you read Whilhelm Reichs The Mass Psychology of Fascism? This book provides imho the best explanation,

(an incredibly simplistic summary would be that the left tried to build by attracting kids to meetings ion the Ukrainian 5 Year Steel Production Plan while the Nazis DID attract kids by putting on parties in darkened halls .. Reich sees sex and sexual repression as a key factor in politics in this ea and quite rightly imho notes the importance of sexual repression and the father figure and need for authority in non liberated individuals as a key factor in fascism )

and agaim simplistically the left were no more liberating than the nazis .. the KPD said powwr must be vested in the upper echelons of the Party while the NSPAD actually PROMISED people real power .. of course they lied but THAT is fascism ..

two problems with Recih here - one, the obvious one, and a slightly cheap shot, but....Orgones.

Secondly, it's not true that the KPD youth didn't put on genuinely 'social' events for youth, they had a variety of musical and sporting gatherings - partly at the behest of reich. it wasn't only the fascists that did that kind of thing at all

 

[dennisr]

Secondly, it's not true that the KPD youth didn't put on genuinely 'social' events for youth, they had a variety of musical and sporting gatherings - partly at the behest of reich. it wasn't only the fascists that did that kind of thing at all

Exactly, far from it, the left organistions as a whole and the wider left leaning spectrum - an explosion of everything from naturism to cabaret was seen across the weimer republic. The development of mass left organisations was shaped within this wider movement - elements may well have been puritan but plenty were the opposite. And that is just the practical refution of the crude arguements (fuck me is the answer "the left should wear a bit more leather and uniforms..."!!)

more importantly its bollocks as an explaination because it ignores the underlying social, economic and political reasons that shaped the 'mass psychology' more than being shaped by the 'mass psychology'.

 

[durruti02]

ok reich has three distinct periods . before he was a communist ( and as a freudian), when he was a communist in the KPD, and after he was expelled and went nutty! the Mass Psycholgy of Fascism was written as a communist ( though there are no un-edited versions from thta period) and before he had 'discovered orgone and cloud busting and kate bush!

and yes the KPD did do 'clean, healthy, disciplined' youth events (and expelled Reich for talking about what teh kids wanted to talk about)

.. the nazis went for darkened halls and burning torches .. who won?