Stop the BNP's Nazi rally in Derbyshire on Saturday 15 August (Discussion)

[dennisr]

and yes the KPD did do 'clean, healthy, disciplined' youth events (and expelled Reich for talking about what teh kids wanted to talk about)

.. the nazis went for darkened halls and burning torches .. who won?

the capitalists

 

[durruti02]

Exactly, far from it, the left organistions as a whole and the wider left leaning spectrum - an explosion of everything from naturism to cabaret was seen across the weimer republic. The development of mass left organisations was shaped within this wider movement - elements may well have been puritan but plenty were the opposite. And that is just the practical refution of the crude arguements (fuck me is the answer "the left should wear a bit more leather and uniforms..."!!)

more importantly its bollocks as an explaination because it ignores the underlying social, economic and political reasons that shaped the 'mass psychology' more than being shaped by the 'mass psychology'.

yes you are correct, the KPD DID arise from that weimar explosion but them clamped down on it as decadent and expelled Reich

and the idea Reich ignored the underlying reasons is absurd dennis .. it was precisely what he was looking at .. why in a context where the left you triumph do the far right triumph?

and no clearly the answer is not more leather and uniforms but it IS being more aware of freedom and control and power, something the left i do NOT think does, with so many parties on the left being frankly control freaks.. your good party is laterly much better but we all know individuals in the SWP who are utter and nasty control freaks

 

[durruti02]

the capitalists

yes but by USING the nazis and ther point being the KPD lost

 

[dennisr]

it IS being more aware of freedom and control and power, something the left i do NOT think does, with so many parties on the left being frankly control freaks.. your good party is laterly much better but we all know individuals in the SWP who are utter and nasty control freaks

I would have thought being more aware of real freedom and real control and real power would be a bit more usefully applied as central to a strategy that wants working class power through understanding of what the real power of the 'other side' is rather than 'lifestyle' politics.

Trotsky's writings on the the rise of fascism - on the dangers of ultra-leftism and its reverse side opportunist popular frontism - are a damn sight more pertinant than reich

 

[dennisr]

yes but by USING the nazis and ther point being the KPD lost

and my point is that the nazis clearly did not understand they were being used - the nazis did NOT win either

my opposition to the KPD would be informed by opposition to their political tactics and strateges rather than their puritanism

 

[belboid]

ok reich has three distinct periods . before he was a communist ( and as a freudian), when he was a communist in the KPD, and after he was expelled and went nutty! the Mass Psycholgy of Fascism was written as a communist ( though there are no un-edited versions from thta period) and before he had 'discovered orgone and cloud busting and kate bush!

and yes the KPD did do 'clean, healthy, disciplined' youth events (and expelled Reich for talking about what teh kids wanted to talk about)

.. the nazis went for darkened halls and burning torches .. who won?

Reich's battiness was still shown whilst he was in the KPD tho - the first talk of 'body armour' comes from that period (if not slightly earlier). The basis of his later complete nuttiness was all there then (even if he did make some decent points at the same time).

there were also rather more differences between the organising of communist youth and nazi youth than simply the kind of socials they had, and to use that as the reason for the triumph of fascism is completely unjustified, and without basis. Hell, it's almost Ickean in it's correlation/causation confusion.

 

[dennisr]

there were also rather more differences between the organising of communist youth and nazi youth than simply the kind of socials they had, and to use that as the reason for the triumph of fascism is completely unjustified, and without basis. Hell, it's almost Ickean in it's correlation/causation confusion.

Yep

 

[Nigel]

 

[audiotech]

About 1,500 protesters gathered in Derbyshire to oppose the BNP's 10th annual Red, White and Blue festival.
The march in and around Codnor passed off mostly peacefully, but a few people were arrested after efforts were made to push past a designated protest area.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/8201022.stm

 

[kavenism]

ok reich has three distinct periods . before he was a communist ( and as a freudian), when he was a communist in the KPD, and after he was expelled and went nutty! the Mass Psycholgy of Fascism was written as a communist ( though there are no un-edited versions from thta period) and before he had 'discovered orgone and cloud busting and kate bush!
QUOTE]

Even in his "Freudian" days he was still thoroughly confused. He read both Freud and Marx as substantialist, as if abstract labour and Libido were actual material things. His later Orgone madness was the logical conclusion of his always-already substantialist readings of Freud. Lacan has far more nuanced and helpful things to say on the idea of “the master”, Otherness and most of all The Father.

 

[Pickman's model]

About 1,500 protesters gathered in Derbyshire to oppose the BNP's 10th annual Red, White and Blue festival.
The march in and around Codnor passed off mostly peacefully, but a few people were arrested after efforts were made to push past a designated protest area.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/8201022.stm

a few apparently being in the region of 20

 

[Silver_Fox]

The root of fascism being the type of youth events held and prudish views on the left. I've heard some bizarre theories in my time but this has got to be pretty near the top

 

[TremulousTetra]

a few apparently being in the region of 20

Where would we be without picks incise political comment!

 

[Maidmarian]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/8201022.stm

Latest.

 

[TremulousTetra]

a few apparently being in the region of 20

19

 

[durruti02]

I would have thought being more aware of real freedom and real control and real power would be a bit more usefully applied as central to a strategy that wants working class power through understanding of what the real power of the 'other side' is rather than 'lifestyle' politics.

Trotsky's writings on the the rise of fascism - on the dangers of ultra-leftism and its reverse side opportunist popular frontism - are a damn sight more pertinant than reich

trotsky writings while pertinant do not explain in any way at all why in crisis the w/c goes to fascism instead of to the left ..

and is Reich now a 'lifestylist' lol dennis do you KNOW what Reich did while in the KPD?

 

[durruti02]

there were also rather more differences between the organising of communist youth and nazi youth than simply the kind of socials they had, and to use that as the reason for the triumph of fascism is completely unjustified, and without basis. Hell, it's almost Ickean in it's correlation/causation confusion.

er yes! of course! who said it was only that? the point is the left failed then as now to understand what the right offers and what people want and need

 

[durruti02]

ok reich has three distinct periods . before he was a communist ( and as a freudian), when he was a communist in the KPD, and after he was expelled and went nutty! the Mass Psycholgy of Fascism was written as a communist ( though there are no un-edited versions from thta period) and before he had 'discovered orgone and cloud busting and kate bush!
QUOTE]

Even in his "Freudian" days he was still thoroughly confused. He read both Freud and Marx as substantialist, as if abstract labour and Libido were actual material things. His later Orgone madness was the logical conclusion of his always-already substantialist readings of Freud. Lacan has far more nuanced and helpful things to say on the idea of “the master”, Otherness and most of all The Father.

but was he wrong in seeing fascism in authoritarianism society and the need for the father figure etc in times of crisis? the idea that psychology is not relevent as some people on here seem to implying seems er crazy!

i dpont know Lacan .. did he talk abour fascism?

 

[durruti02]

The root of fascism being the type of youth events held and prudish views on the left. I've heard some bizarre theories in my time but this has got to be pretty near the top

maybe read the book instead of taking my 'summary'!

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Looks like one of the BNP's Nazi guests is not going to be able to attend their little jamboree of hate:

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article:1308-BNP-nazi-guest-barred-from-UK

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

UAF protesters getting arrested, the UAF rabble look more thuggish than the BNP.

The UAF has just become the publicity wing of the bnp.

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

trotsky writings while pertinant do not explain in any way at all why in crisis the w/c goes to fascism instead of to the left ..

and is Reich now a 'lifestylist' lol dennis do you KNOW what Reich did while in the KPD?

Parts of the left is becomming very much like the far right. We have a left wing government that is given money by trade unions etc.

Members of this left wing government speak at many socialist meetings.

And this left wing governent blows muslim women and children up in Afghanistan and Iraq etc.

And to top it all many socialists still have a soft spot for this murderous deceitful New labour party.

 

[detective-boy]

Parts of the left is becomming very much like the far right.

The far anything is going to be much like the far anything else. Surely any arrangements in which self-interest plays a part, in which people abuse power that they have on behalf of others and in which tolerance of difference is minimal will end up looking pretty similar?

 

[audiotech]

 

[Grandma Death]

Parts of the left is becomming very much like the far right. We have a left wing government that is given money by trade unions etc.

Members of this left wing government speak at many socialist meetings.

And this left wing governent blows muslim women and children up in Afghanistan and Iraq etc.

And to top it all many socialists still have a soft spot for this murderous deceitful New labour party.

This government left wing?

Are you for real?

 

[durruti02]

Parts of the left is becomming very much like the far right. We have a left wing government that is given money by trade unions etc.

Members of this left wing government speak at many socialist meetings.

And this left wing governent blows muslim women and children up in Afghanistan and Iraq etc.

And to top it all many socialists still have a soft spot for this murderous deceitful New labour party.

left wing govt??? are you sure!!! there is not a socialist within a thousend miles of this govt .. they are free market radicals thru and thru more tory than any tory govt in the 20thC apart from mags in the 8ts

 

[TremulousTetra]

We have a left wing government that is given money by trade unions etc.

who they then ignore.

Members of this left wing government speak at many socialist meetings.

what members of the government speak to what socialist meetings

And this left wing governent blows muslim women and children up in Afghanistan and Iraq etc.

at the behest of a right wing American president, surely?

And to top it all many socialists still have a soft spot for this murderous deceitful New labour party.

who does?

 

[belboid]

er yes! of course! who said it was only that? the point is the left failed then as now to understand what the right offers and what people want and need

well your comment

and yes the KPD did do 'clean, healthy, disciplined' youth events ..... the nazis went for darkened halls and burning torches .. who won?

could well be taken that way. And your support for Reich's theses are based on vastly selective evidence. The KPD put on far more, and more varied social activities than you or Reich say/said, the nazi's was far less 'free' than you give the impression (yes, they allowed a bit of sex to go on, but that wont make that much difference, young people always find a way to have a shag, in case you'd forgotten ).

And the idea that the left didn't recognise what people needed - jobs, security, homes, no racist scapegoats - is grotesquely inaccurate.

Reich had some interesting things to say, to take him as any kind of guide in how to beat fascism would be terrifying!

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

This government left wing?

Are you for real?

Yes I am for real. We all know deep down new labour is far from left wing. But we still invite labour mps members etc to speak at left wing meetings etc.

Many people can find balance with new labour and tolerate it. But if a far right party did what new labour has done there would be riots

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

left wing govt??? are you sure!!! there is not a socialist within a thousend miles of this govt .. they are free market radicals thru and thru more tory than any tory govt in the 20thC apart from mags in the 8ts

In that case the left wing should fuck these new labour off compleatly and demand the unions stop supporting these free market radicals