The more this goes on, the more I blame AirBNB.
Spanish Political News
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
I'm neither a fascist, an idiot, nor an Antena 3 viewer. I'm someone who lived in Catalonia who could sympathise with the independence movement, yet, see the flaws in it at the same time, and felt how people who weren't pro-independence were sometimes being railroaded and were starting to be politically marginalised. I'm someone who now lives in SpainSpain and can see how we got to where we are is mainly courtesy of pathetic Spanish governance.
It's basically all Spain's fault. Catalonia has every right to self-determination. I just don't like your blind brand of Catalanismo. It's hyperbolic, sometimes dishonest, and never objective.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
It's very possible that there were staged interviews, I just don't think the whole story was invented. I think I watched the story on a less-crazy channel called Cuatro, and it was a roundtable debate thing. Not on Antena 3. I believe so anyway.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
I appreciate this post of yours.
What is your position re Jordi Sánchez and Jordi Cuixart being imprisoned without bail for sedition?
Where have I been dishonest?
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
I think that it's another spectacular own goal from the Spanish government. I mean, independentistas could have been stopped in their tracks with any one of the following; common sense, compassion, Machiavellianism, or the very referendum they have been denied, more or less any time in the past decade.
To piss Catalans off this much for this long, water down their democratically approved autonomy, then deny them a vote, then beat them up with big sticks, and then start throwing people in prison to create political martyrs, takes stupidity to such heights that I can almost admire it - somehow like staring at the beauty of a mushroom cloud from an atomic bomb.
i lived in Manresa, that was pretty damn Catalan. I also lived in Barcelona where most people genuinely weren't that arsed about the issue 10 years ago. It's almost an achievement to have managed fire so many people up against you. Hats off Rajoy. It's amazing what you've done.
Dishonest? i think there were some stats you pulled up in a post recently that got shot down for being daft recently. I'll find the exact post if i must. i find your presentation of the situation one-sided to the point of dishonesty. The selective posts about corruption (which is a massive problem in Catalonia outside of the PP) and so on.
You have to admit, "The Gary Neville of Catalan Nationalism" would look great under your avatar.
I hope you get what you want, while remembering that Catalonia is just another stretch of dirt like any other, not much different in culture from most of Spain, and that while a big minority, PP voters are just that, a minority, even over the borders towards Aragon and beyond.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
I put up some stats on corruption in the form of a graphic, from Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic islands. As far as I know they are correct.
If I am coming across as one sided it's because I find the other side horrendous and I don't give much credit to their reasoned arguments, I mean violence, repression, lies and contempt for democracy. Just a silly habit I have really.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Here's a bit of balance. Some unionists tonite (the good catalans), going home after stopping traffic in Barcelona for a couple of hours and inviting people to shout "viva españa" before encouraging them to drive on. They are singing a catalan song, hoping that the king will save them from the bad catalans. Their voices are hoarse not from shouting abuse but from cheering the police for doing such a good job on the 1st of october. For them Catalonia doesn't exist. It is Spain.
Riklet
procrastinación
But what's your point? I appreciate your input and your posts have stirred good debate, but is it really surprising the extreme right response?
The 5 Atocha lawyers were shot dead during the transition by the extreme right. I totally dont support the Spanish state jailing political leaders etc and totally agree with Favelado's post. But where do things go from here? It's predictably gonna be a shit reponse in the morning. So what is the next step? Because appealing to the EU and banging pots every bloody night (God this would drive me bonkers) isn't gonna be much of a response for a powerful civil movement.
The 5 Atocha lawyers were shot dead during the transition by the extreme right. I totally dont support the Spanish state jailing political leaders etc and totally agree with Favelado's post. But where do things go from here? It's predictably gonna be a shit reponse in the morning. So what is the next step? Because appealing to the EU and banging pots every bloody night (God this would drive me bonkers) isn't gonna be much of a response for a powerful civil movement.
Jeremiah18.17
Well-Known Member
Occupy and resist. The "national question" then becomes the social question, the economic question, the question of who holds power.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
From the more orthodox end but a very good serious read once it's past the brief lenin-rehashing (point three expands on my last post somewhat):
On Catalonia: Debates in the Greek Left
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you always come across as one sided.
Riklet
procrastinación
So folks what's gonna happen come Saturday morning?
They are really forcing the Catalan hand here. Could end very messily. Im not sure about the legalities and details of the two independentistas being jailed but this also doesn't look great, does it.
Do Urbs who live in Spain or have links to Spain see any change in mindset or attitude from the rest of Spanish society? I cant quite believe that even a large minority thinks taking over Catalunya using whatever means is a realistic and proportionate response!
They are really forcing the Catalan hand here. Could end very messily. Im not sure about the legalities and details of the two independentistas being jailed but this also doesn't look great, does it.
Do Urbs who live in Spain or have links to Spain see any change in mindset or attitude from the rest of Spanish society? I cant quite believe that even a large minority thinks taking over Catalunya using whatever means is a realistic and proportionate response!
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Here in Madrid, they still don't get it. Being an English teacher is interesting as you do get to hear the mood of the city you live in. Madrileños are still banging on about the constitution, how Cataluña would be fucked on its own, how if they don't implement 155 then it will encourage the Basques and Galicians. There is a lack of condemnation of police violence (that madrileños themselves have been subject to in recent years) and little independent critical thought.
Spanish thought consists of tribes and automated responses. It's amazing that no matter how complex a situation is, you will here 2 or 3 versions of the same script depending on which one of the "two Spains" you come from.
Even though the scripts were different in Catalonia when i was there, I found the same phenomenon there. There is a curious Iberian tendency to herd around very limited ideas and spout them verbatim. Quotidian political rhetoric is no more sophisticated than quotidian football rhetoric. Barça or Madrid? PP or PSOE? Pro or anti independence. It's disappointing and frustrating in equal measures.
Spanish thought consists of tribes and automated responses. It's amazing that no matter how complex a situation is, you will here 2 or 3 versions of the same script depending on which one of the "two Spains" you come from.
Even though the scripts were different in Catalonia when i was there, I found the same phenomenon there. There is a curious Iberian tendency to herd around very limited ideas and spout them verbatim. Quotidian political rhetoric is no more sophisticated than quotidian football rhetoric. Barça or Madrid? PP or PSOE? Pro or anti independence. It's disappointing and frustrating in equal measures.
This does always work both ways.
What do you think a vote for independence will actually mean? How will Catalunya be any different? What will be the benefit?
Is Independence simply enough?
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Agree entirely v much like Americans really
So much depends on who was shooting at your (great) grandparents.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Ya hay un español que quiere
vivir y a vivir empieza,
entre una España que muere
y otra España que bosteza.
Españolito que vienes
al mundo te guarde Dios.
Una de las dos Españas
ha de helarte el corazón.
"There is a Spaniard who wants to live,
and living begins between a Spain that dies and a Spain that yawns.
Little Spaniard coming into this world,
May God protect you.
One of the two Spains will surely freeze your heart."
vivir y a vivir empieza,
entre una España que muere
y otra España que bosteza.
Españolito que vienes
al mundo te guarde Dios.
Una de las dos Españas
ha de helarte el corazón.
"There is a Spaniard who wants to live,
and living begins between a Spain that dies and a Spain that yawns.
Little Spaniard coming into this world,
May God protect you.
One of the two Spains will surely freeze your heart."
It's the same all over. Seen it in every country I've lived in. Discourse by sound bite.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Too much but never enough
Riklet
procrastinación
Haha yeah we could probably say the same about Britain to a large extent! It's easy to look at other places through a more critical lense sometimes.
How many Brits have a critical and nuanced view of Ireland for example, grounded in solid politics? Some maybe...
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
guilford 4 were guilty, its still called rhodesia...my family...
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
I agree with your first paragraph about the spanish unionist level of argument, but as someone in contact with many Catalans I can tell you that here, the arguments are more detailed and informed, grounded in politics, economics and history. The Catalans are more critical and the amount of information being passed around via the whattsap groups is staggering. Your average independentista is very well informed. Try putting the content of this link in a translator to get an idea.
VilaWeb - Diari digital líder en català. Última hora, notícies i opinió
The spanish unionst argument basically boils down to "Catalonia is a possession of Spain" because god and my testicles say so. They call it unity as they seeth with hostility towards the catalans. This is nothing new, it goes back 300 years. Take note of the fact that the 10,000 police who brutally assaulted and injured over 1000 peaceful citizens (including 23 over 79 years old) were shipped in from all over Spain. That is telling in itself. It is an occupation force and it is still here.
I see the PPSOE have their sights on the catalan TV channel, TV3, what's next? Some nasty PP politician as president of the Generalitat?
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tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
More than have a critical and nuanced view of the EU, if only because most of us have some degree of familial connection with Ireland
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
So your side takes a sophisticated view of things, but the other side doesn't? My problem is that I don't see too much sophistication in most of your posts, including this one.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Point taken. I have endevoured to piece together some of the reasons for Independence I have been receiving from numerous sources here, by Whattsap, media and from numerous conversations. Every day I hear something new. Just an hour ago, having beers on a terrace and speaking with people who are going to Barcelona to protest this saturday, I learned more stuff which I have included below. They told me about 1714, a severed head and cannons pointing in a dubious direction. You will have to read my attempt at summarizing the catalan question below to know what that was about. There's a load of it so I will post it up in parts as soon as I have done it.
There are several sections: Historical, language, legal, cultural, education and economic.
Historical
Catalonia was its own state with its own institutions from medieval times until 1714, when it was conquered militarily by the French and Spanish bourbon armies who besieged Barcelona. Previous to that, Catalonia had formed part of the alliance with Britain that fought against the Bourbons (see the war of succession, Gibraltar and Churchill’s ancestor, Marlborough,). The general, who defended Barcelona, was drawn and quartered and his head was placed in a cage overlooking the city for 12 years and the city’s ramparts were turned around so that the cannons faced inwards. A Spanish law was decreed, La nueva planta, virtually wiping the Catalan administration out and substituting it with a Castilian one by force. 50 years later it was further compounded when Carlos III banned the Catalan language and even the publication of books. He was a despot and it was no coincidence that the current king chose as a backdrop to his anti-Catalan speech last week, the portrait of this particular anti-catalan ancestor. Catalonia became a conquered territory, where its language, laws and culture were abolished by force. There has been resentment and regular resistance since then right up to today. I’ve been here for over 20 years and heard all of this from day one.
language
Spanish state nationalism is intolerant of cultural diversity in the peninsular. There are many proofs of this, one of them being the continual blocking to prevent the Catalan language from being recognized as an official language in the European Union. Sweden and Slovenia, both with smaller populations are recognized. Why not Catalonia? Answer: Spanish bullying. Authorities regularly oblige Catalan speaking officials to speak spanish.
The PP government is obsessed with trying to control the amount of Catalan used in the education system here. Wert, a PP education minister blurted that he intended to Spanishize Catalonian children. Numerous open and vulgar attacks on catalonia carried out by this party have contributed to the steady growth of the independentista movement. The Catalans also feel attacked when bigots, who hear them speaking in their language, growl at them the much heard phrase during the Franco dictatorship, “Speak in a Christian language!” This can come as much from the PP as from bigots in the street. It is threatening in its tone. I saw a case last friday in my local supermarket. A woman shouting in Spanish that they should change “this fucking Catalan sign for one in Spanish you cunts, you’ll see on Monday”.
So deep is the obsession and hatred for the Catalans in Spain, at an official as well as a street level, that last week, Dastis, the PP foreign minister, openly lied in an interview on French TV. When asked if Spanish was taught in schools in Catalonia he replied no. Thus is the level. In a normal country he would be forced to resign for such a slander. I have a 7 year old who has benefited from the Catalan education system and who is trilingual. In Spain they only speak one language. The PP, if it enacts 155, will no doubt attack the education system here. The Spanish state offers no linguistic or cultural protection to Catalonia. Quite the contrary, it is openly hostile.
Legal
Despite massive and growing protests over the years Catalonia’s autonomy has found itself more and more squeezed by an increasingly centralist state.
There is a long list of laws that have been passed in the Catalan parliament that have been systematically overturned by appeals from the Spanish government through the constitutional court, for example, in 2010 Catalonia voted to ban bullfighting, a Castillian custom. This law was stopped by the constitutional court even though the likelihood of bullfights reappearing in Catalonia is slim to none.
The Constitutional court, with its appointed judges, who are party affiliates to the Spanish state apparatus and sometimes even fascists, destroyed the Catalan Estatut, a sort of Catalan constitution (almost the same as the Andalucía one which was not opposed by the state). Among other things, the Estatut tried to give protection to Catalan culture and language and was voted for by the Catalan people in 2006. It was the blocking and interference by the Spanish constitutional courts which triggered the subsequent wave of Catalan resistance to Spanish control, resulting in the referendum on the 1st of October. It’s been a 10 year build up on top of a historical conflict that has lasted centuries. Here, the Spanish constitutional court is seen as a weapon used by the state again and again against Catalan aspirations to go forward, and is considered to make partial decisions.
(separation of the justice system from party allegiance in Spain is not respected and is therefore at odds with modern democratic norms)
Only 8% of judicial sentences in Catalonia are carried out in Catalan.
Update 21st october: Yesterday Anonymous hacked and brought Down the Consititutional courts's website in protest at their moral and political corruption:
Anonymous fa caure la web del Tribunal Constitucional i anuncia una sèrie de ciberatacs en defensa de Catalunya
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Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Pretty incomplete but anyway,
Political
Although the bi-party system has been weakened by the appearance of Podemos, which was born from a protest movement (15m), the overwhelming feeling in Catalonia is that spanish politics doesn’t represent Catalonia. In Spain, the PP ultra conservative Franco nostalgists garner over 8 million unconditional votes at every election while Catalans hold their hands up to their heads. In Catalonia the PP has 300,000 votes and are despised.
The thousands of cases of corruption and the fact they now have their grubby hands dipping into the pension reserve has done nothing to release the grip of the PPSOE as they cynically use anti-catalanism to bolster their vote. Their Trojan horse party, Cuitadans, whose speeches sound more and more like old school falangist fascism, has, after overtaking them in the race to the right, garnered more followers. Spanish patriots are rallying to the flag of anti-catalanism whilst dragging their knuckles. People here in Catalonia are fed up with being bullied by the PP. That alone for me is a very strong reason for independence. It would weaken the reactionary, undemocratic and backward thinking Spanish state while also making it difficult for corrupt local politicians to continue such practices. After all, the independence process is politicizing people here. The anti-capitalist CUP, who are a key player in the process, with parliamentary representation, have promoted anti-corruption laws and outed hundreds. The PSOE, by joining the PP in calling for the 155 suspension of autonomy has taken sides with and helped legitimize a violent, intolerant right wing state that offers impunity to fascists to attack demonstrators (Valencia 9th august) and oppresses the Catalan people. The extreme right in spain is emboldened, as was seen last night in Barcelona where they stopped cars and forced people to shout "Viva España".
The fact that the European union has chosen to take sides with Rajoy’s government has stirred a massive anti-European sentiment here. THE EU can fuck off as far as the Catalans are concerned. It’s not just Independence they want now but Catalexit.
Political
Although the bi-party system has been weakened by the appearance of Podemos, which was born from a protest movement (15m), the overwhelming feeling in Catalonia is that spanish politics doesn’t represent Catalonia. In Spain, the PP ultra conservative Franco nostalgists garner over 8 million unconditional votes at every election while Catalans hold their hands up to their heads. In Catalonia the PP has 300,000 votes and are despised.
The thousands of cases of corruption and the fact they now have their grubby hands dipping into the pension reserve has done nothing to release the grip of the PPSOE as they cynically use anti-catalanism to bolster their vote. Their Trojan horse party, Cuitadans, whose speeches sound more and more like old school falangist fascism, has, after overtaking them in the race to the right, garnered more followers. Spanish patriots are rallying to the flag of anti-catalanism whilst dragging their knuckles. People here in Catalonia are fed up with being bullied by the PP. That alone for me is a very strong reason for independence. It would weaken the reactionary, undemocratic and backward thinking Spanish state while also making it difficult for corrupt local politicians to continue such practices. After all, the independence process is politicizing people here. The anti-capitalist CUP, who are a key player in the process, with parliamentary representation, have promoted anti-corruption laws and outed hundreds. The PSOE, by joining the PP in calling for the 155 suspension of autonomy has taken sides with and helped legitimize a violent, intolerant right wing state that offers impunity to fascists to attack demonstrators (Valencia 9th august) and oppresses the Catalan people. The extreme right in spain is emboldened, as was seen last night in Barcelona where they stopped cars and forced people to shout "Viva España".
The fact that the European union has chosen to take sides with Rajoy’s government has stirred a massive anti-European sentiment here. THE EU can fuck off as far as the Catalans are concerned. It’s not just Independence they want now but Catalexit.
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Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Economic
Every day 40 million euros leave Catalonia as contributions in taxes to Madrid. Only part is returned. For every 115 euros, 5 are collected directly by the Catalan tax office and afterwards, about 55 are returned to Catalonia from Spain. It is one of the regions with fewer civil servants per capita due to this deficit in funding. The Basque country collects and administers 100% of its taxes. So, 16,000,000 euros leave Catalonia each year. The deficit for 2016 was 14,623,000 euros. This money going out stunts growth and progress in Catalonia. It should not be seen naively as some kind of help for poorer areas of Spain, that just isn’t happening with the PP government. They choose to build railway stations for the bullet train in small villages where their relatives live before looking after the economic welfare of Catalonia.
Catalan Ports and airports are controlled by Madrid, their growth is stunted and Barcelona airport has its scope curbed.
Energy policy in Catalonia is controlled by Spain. It is very expensive. The PP has sabotaged solar energy with a tax, possibly the only case in the world. The Catalans want more control over these issues and believe that progress cannot be made due to negative political control from Madrid. The Mediterranean corridor, a haulage route has been designed to skirt Catalonia.
Catalonia is not represented in any way by Spanish embassies or diplomacy.
81% of toll motorways "in Spain" are in Catalonia but are controlled from outside. A lorry carrying goods to Valencia or Zaragoza from Barcelona must pay around 100 euros each trip. The cost between Madirid to Valencia and other cities is free.
There is more but…
Every day 40 million euros leave Catalonia as contributions in taxes to Madrid. Only part is returned. For every 115 euros, 5 are collected directly by the Catalan tax office and afterwards, about 55 are returned to Catalonia from Spain. It is one of the regions with fewer civil servants per capita due to this deficit in funding. The Basque country collects and administers 100% of its taxes. So, 16,000,000 euros leave Catalonia each year. The deficit for 2016 was 14,623,000 euros. This money going out stunts growth and progress in Catalonia. It should not be seen naively as some kind of help for poorer areas of Spain, that just isn’t happening with the PP government. They choose to build railway stations for the bullet train in small villages where their relatives live before looking after the economic welfare of Catalonia.
Catalan Ports and airports are controlled by Madrid, their growth is stunted and Barcelona airport has its scope curbed.
Energy policy in Catalonia is controlled by Spain. It is very expensive. The PP has sabotaged solar energy with a tax, possibly the only case in the world. The Catalans want more control over these issues and believe that progress cannot be made due to negative political control from Madrid. The Mediterranean corridor, a haulage route has been designed to skirt Catalonia.
Catalonia is not represented in any way by Spanish embassies or diplomacy.
81% of toll motorways "in Spain" are in Catalonia but are controlled from outside. A lorry carrying goods to Valencia or Zaragoza from Barcelona must pay around 100 euros each trip. The cost between Madirid to Valencia and other cities is free.
There is more but…
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Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
As an historic nation Catalonia has a right to decide on it's self determination according to the letter of the united nations of 1951.
It has asked Spain 17 times and been refused each time the right to vote. They opted this time for disobedience. The spanish state reacted in its usual way with violence with an occupation force, judicial and economic assault. They are holding peaceful political organisers in prison without bail, they intend to shut down autonomy, take control of catalan tv, finances and the mossos. I think they will also target eduction. The PP and Ciutadans have spoken also about their desire to outlaw political parties that support independence, in other words, the majority. They talk of calling elections for next january. IMO it's bollox. The only way independence wouldn't win that election would be if they were banned from participating.
It has asked Spain 17 times and been refused each time the right to vote. They opted this time for disobedience. The spanish state reacted in its usual way with violence with an occupation force, judicial and economic assault. They are holding peaceful political organisers in prison without bail, they intend to shut down autonomy, take control of catalan tv, finances and the mossos. I think they will also target eduction. The PP and Ciutadans have spoken also about their desire to outlaw political parties that support independence, in other words, the majority. They talk of calling elections for next january. IMO it's bollox. The only way independence wouldn't win that election would be if they were banned from participating.
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