Spanish Political News

[J Ed]

Does anyone else find interesting the lack of commentary on the EU's sanctioning of state violence against Catalans for having the temerity to take part in a democratic process? What happened, which is organised extreme violence including aggravated assault and sexual assault, is bad enough but by sanctioning it the EU has given the go ahead for worse violence. In a sense, by allowing without comment the passing of extreme authoritarian legislation in Spain it sanctioned this sort of state repression years ago.

In 1981 the EU was one of the forces that opposed Tejero's coup against Spanish democracy, today they would be and effectively are backing up the successors of Tejero who ironically and shamefully claim the mantle of those who came out into the streets to protest against the coup. The sort of lazy and offensive abuse of history that reminds me of neoconservatives comparing Western foreign policy to the anti-fascism of the 30s and 40s.

 

[tim]

Does anyone else find interesting the lack of commentary on the EU's sanctioning of state violence against Catalans for having the temerity to take part in a democratic process? What happened, which is organised extreme violence including aggravated assault and sexual assault, is bad enough but by sanctioning it the EU has given the go ahead for worse violence. In a sense, by allowing without comment the passing of extreme authoritarian legislation in Spain it sanctioned this sort of state repression years ago.

In 1981 the EU was one of the forces that opposed Tejero's coup against Spanish democracy, today they would be and effectively are backing up the successors of Tejero who ironically and shamefully claim the mantle of those who came out into the streets to protest against the coup. The sort of lazy and offensive abuse of history that reminds me of neoconservatives comparing Western foreign policy to the anti-fascism of the 30s and 40s.

Spain wasn't an EU member with a veto I'm 1981.Alsowhilst the violence and intransigence of the Spanish government is quite, post do is the fact that the referendum was not free or fair. The Spanish government is responsible for that but it doesn't give the Catalan government the mandate it needs to justify secession.

 

[J Ed]

Spain wasn't an EU member with a veto I'm 1981.Alsowhilst the violence and intransigence of the Spanish government is quite, post do is the fact that the referendum was not free or fair. The Spanish government is responsible for that but it doesn't give the Catalan government the mandate it needs to justify secession.

I know that the EU wasn't an EU member in 1981 but the EU, through various guises, played a key role and largely shaped the transition to democracy in Spain. Much of that was done through the influence of the various centre-left parties in EU member states. I don't see what that has to do with what I wrote though.

I'm not in favour of Catalan Nationalism, but that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the EU has sanctioned extreme police violence against civilians for pursuing their democratic right to self-determination in the face of a government which has foreclosed all other options available to them.

 

[planetgeli]

Orgreave didn’t give the NUM a mandate either but if mandates had have been what people were bleating on about in June 1984 instead of state sanctioned violence against those in opposition to that state then...

 

[Raheem]

Orgreave didn’t give the NUM a mandate either but if mandates had have been what people were bleating on about in June 1984 instead of state sanctioned violence against those in opposition to that state then...

I don't think I follow. What comes after the dots?

 

[planetgeli]

I don't think I follow. What comes after the dots?

Well the first word might be ‘fuck’, but then I do swear more than the average bear.

 

[ddraig]

Does anyone else find interesting the lack of commentary on the EU's sanctioning of state violence against Catalans for having the temerity to take part in a democratic process? What happened, which is organised extreme violence including aggravated assault and sexual assault, is bad enough but by sanctioning it the EU has given the go ahead for worse violence. In a sense, by allowing without comment the passing of extreme authoritarian legislation in Spain it sanctioned this sort of state repression years ago.

In 1981 the EU was one of the forces that opposed Tejero's coup against Spanish democracy, today they would be and effectively are backing up the successors of Tejero who ironically and shamefully claim the mantle of those who came out into the streets to protest against the coup. The sort of lazy and offensive abuse of history that reminds me of neoconservatives comparing Western foreign policy to the anti-fascism of the 30s and 40s.

I see it as straightforward
Spain is the official state, Catalunya is trying it on so the EU backs the official and legal state as it stands, don't rock th boat or encourage others, nothing to see here, Spain's problem

 

[J Ed]

Trying it on, that is what democracy is now then.

 

[J Ed]

Thank god we are leaving an institution with that sort of attitude, I quite fancy a bit of trying it on.

 

[T & P]

Today was Spains national day of spanishness, it celebrates the dicovery of america with a miltary parade and lots of jingoistic flag waving. It has always been a date in the calender for anti-fascists because there is always trouble. In the morning in barcelona there was the more moderate gathering (see photo) which was attended by 300,000 people less than the one last week because to bus them all in again from the furthest points of the spanish peninsular would have been too much to ask. There chants were "don't let them fool you, catalonia is spain" and the popular ditty "Puigdemont to jail".

You can make the claim as many times as you want, mate. It is still not true and you are still not fooling anyone here.

The overwhelming majority of the half million or so people who attended the pro unity rally last week were Catalans. There were not bussed in from elsewhere. If you aren’t even able to concede such basic fact and admit that there is a sizeable proportion of Catalans who are against independence, then what point is there in discussing or debating anything else about the issue with you? One might as well try to discuss science with a flat earther.

 

[J Ed]

You can make the claim as many times as you want, mate. It is still not true and you are still not fooling anyone here.

The overwhelming majority of the half million or so people who attended the pro unity rally last week were Catalans. There were not bussed in from elsewhere. If you aren’t even able to concede such basic fact and admit that there is a sizeable proportion of Catalans who are against independence, then what point is there in discussing or debating anything else about the issue with you? One might as well try to discuss science with a flat earther.

Who cares? It was a colonialist-centrist-fascist rally. Plenty of decent Catalans against Catalan independence, none of them were in attendance.

 

[J Ed]

Spanish liberalism seems to have amalgamated itself into some weird combination of Primo de Rivera, Vargas Llosa, Nick Clegg + fash in laws and Carrero Blanco. Really ugly, and probably what the neoliberal 'centre' will look like in the rest of the West within 5-10 years.

 

[T & P]

Who cares? It was a colonialist-centrist-fascist rally. Plenty of decent Catalans against Catalan independence, none of them were in attendance.

O Rly?

 

[J Ed]

O Rly?

Very fine people

 

[J Ed]

More very fine people incensed at disrespect for the democratic process, aided by their friends in the police.



The Spanish equivalent of the Police Federation here, demonstrating their clear respect for the rule of law and democracy

 

[T & P]

Very fine people

Even if those pictures were taken at the rally last week (several other claims about similar images were later shown to be wrong and taken at a completely different event) surely you are not suggesting that a few twats posing on a square- or indeed anywhere else- are representative of half a million people?

 

[Favelado]

Catalanistas were tweeting their happiness that a Spanish fighter jet pilot died yesterday. At universities in Catalonia, lists are being compiled of non-independentistas so that their pro-independence peers can harass then. Over here in evil Madrid, Spanish TV news might as well come straight from PP headquarters rather than pretending to be objective.

We'll end up with 2 shit countries for the price of one in a matter of months.

 

[Riklet]

Yeah the cunts have got their flags from the Chinos and are busy willy-waving in force in Madrid. By no means anywhere near the majority TBF! The average opinions really are pretty shit. Even my Spanish friends who participated in things like 15-M have said things like "what did they expect?" and "police violence? that was nothing". I've stopped watching or listening to the news from within Spain cos it's a load of bullshit and very conformist, there is very little democratic debate and challenging the status quo, except from the devil-children of Podemos. Very sad tbh.

Nothing to be too shocked about in Catalonia just cos some fash and dodgy types went on that march. There really ARE huge numbers against independence in Catalonia, quite aside from the whole recent economic shebang and companies pretending to flee. Reducing it to "not real Catalans" is a dodgy argument IMO. But they have form with the shit previous said about Andalucía and Andalucians.

I support the democratic progress and the right to vote, organise, challenge the state, resist police violence etc but some of the independentistas and the way they carry on are not our friends. They don't show much sign of progressive politics. The lack of debate in Spain is also reflected in Catalunya too, and the shutting down of debate and lack of people wanting to speak out/stand out or be seen as too different. Ironically, I would say this is a very Spanish attribute, overall.

Again, I would highlight the El Pais economic data showing significantly lower support for independence in Catalonia from those with lower salaries and from the working class. Maybe not all, sure. But there is a hand-wringy social media hyping middle-class jazz hand flag waving our regional-dance-is-better-than-yours liberal university side to Catalan politics, which even when nominally left-wing doesn't fully inspire me with confidence. I am not saying there are not good people involved and good things happening, but if this is the future of Catalunya, Jesus. Boor bastards.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

To add to that, one thing I don't like is the difficulty some nationalists have with people whose ancestors are not from that region. A friend of mine's partner was told not to have children with him because it would 'dilute the Basque blood'. Some Spanish people are no better in this respect, of course. Raza and casta is a nasty undercurrent here.

There's both a Basque word (maketo) and a Catalan one (xarnego) for what they used to call immigrants: people from other parts of the Spanish state. many live in the 'red belt' around Barcelona, where they are more lukewarm about independence.

Some people need to decide if they live in a country or on a native American reservation.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Apparently Rajoy has said Puigdemont's four page answer to the question of whether Catalonia has declared UDI is not good enough and has given him an extension to Friday to answer "No" before implementation of article 155 of the Constitution which will shut down Catalonia's devolved institutions and impose direct rule.......

 

[Riklet]

And the merry game of Call My Bluff goes on and on.

 

[bemused]

Apparently Rajoy has said Puigdemont's four page answer to the question of whether Catalonia has declared UDI is not good enough and has given him an extension to Friday to answer "No" before implementation of 155 which will shut down Catalonia's devolved institutions and impose direct rule.......

If he enacts 155 and Catalonia ignores it what happens then?

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

If he enacts 155 and Catalonia ignores it what happens then?

I assume the Guardia and potentially the military go in and arrest those ignoring the instruction, shut down and occupy the institutions. At that point it is then a question of how the mass of the Catalan people, their parties and unions react.

 

[gosub]

If he enacts 155 and Catalonia ignores it what happens then?

The government tries to take control of the country

 

[bemused]

I assume the Guardia and potentially the military go in and arrest those ignoring the instruction, shut down and occupy the institutions. At that point it is then a question of how the mass of the Catalan people, their parties and unions react.

Is there any way that Spain would allow a legal referendum to take place?

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Is there any way that Spain would allow a legal referendum to take place?

Not under the current PP Government and Constitution, no. Or the PSOE for that matter.

 

[Riklet]

It's not allowed under the constition of '78 apparently.

Apparently.

If they had modified the constitution 3 years ago and allowed one, who knows where we would currently be.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Thanks to the aqcuiesence (fuck that's hard to spell) of the european onion, Europe 2017 has it's first political prisoners taken by the PP mafia party (1000 pending trial for corruption) and it's political judges and prosecutors. I shit you not. Spain is living in the 19th century, incapable of dialogue and fully capable of political and physical repression against innocent people.

Cuixart i Sànchez, presos polítics a l’Europa del 2017 per una mobilització pacífica

an excerpt:

"Judge of the Spanish Court of Justice Carmen Lamela has ordered prison without bail for the presidents of the ANC and Òmnium Cultural, Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart, accused of an alleged crime of sedition for the demonstrations on the 20th and 21st of September. Both will be transferred to the prison of Soto del Real, forty kilometers from Madrid.
The judge understands that they called for the 'protection' of the rulers with 'mass mobilizations', rather than a peaceful demonstration. The accusation was extended to the facts of the referendum of the first of October. The crime of sedition is punished with a maximum of ten years in prison".

The charge of sedition requires violence or rioting. Here is a video of the demo in september being controlled by the Catalan police, whose chief has also been arrested for sedition. Hundreds of mayors face prosecution in Catalonia.

The caserolada (pot banging on numerous balconies) tonite was the noisiest I have heard so far, it started half an hour earlier than usual because of the news of the imprisonment of the representativves of ANC and Omnium cultural. I was out banging mine.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Last friday, a woman, obviously all puffed up by the culturally fascist and anti -catalan mobilizations seen around spain, started to shout in my local supermarket. She had seen the special offer sign in catalan, which is the local language for anyone who doesn't already know, so she started to scream.

¿Porque no esta en castellano, hijos de puta. El lunes te vais a enterrar!"

Why isn't that sign in spanish you fucking cunts? you are going to get a shock this monday you fuckers!

The people behind the deli counter, all independentistas, just looked at her in silence.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Political prisoners in Europe.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...y-independence-stance-in-letter-to-spanish-pm