Spanish Political News

[1%er]

So it seems he will "stand by the referendum vote" but wants dialogue
So no UDI today

 

[Pickman's model]

Has journalist tim pool been spotted in Spain?

 

[planetgeli]

"Spain's pretty anti-Catalan, Catalonia is the true upholder of Spanish democracy, the police were cunts, let's de-escalate this shit because I can't really back up my threats with action."

Something like that.

We propose to suspend the effect of the independence declaration... in order to work towards putting into practice the result of the referendum... Today, we are making a gesture of responsibility in favour of dialogue.

Yeah. Right first time.

 

[bemused]

This is fascinating to watch. Is the government in Spain going to sit at the table and negotiate - it doesn't look like it at the moment.

 

[butchersapron]

Get it off the streets - let the sensible catalan bosses do the talking to the spanish state. Let's...pact.

 

[Lurdan]

 

[Raheem]

Not sure it's really a full fudge yet. He hasn't given himself an obvious climbdown route. I'm no confectioner, but maybe this is nougat or something, to keep the kids quiet while he looks up the recipe for fudge on his phone.

 

[J Ed]

Mealy mouthed fence sitting is epidemic now. Justified by the usual alleged political corruption - existing on both sides to some extent - the existence of a handful of rightists and a few dodgy images on one side. (As opposed to the masses of fascists and mass media manipulation on the side of the status quo)
As interesting to watch the apologists for PP fascism as it has been to watch the apologists for Erdogan. Particularly in the "liberal" Guardian and i newspapers.

Neither the CUP nor the YPG/SDF are perfect and both have embarrassing allies, and few pretend otherwise. But it is interesting to see certain people lay into both Rojava/Kurdistan and Catalonia when they are clearly faced by authoritarian demagogues. It is noted.

Who are the apologists for the PP here? Or the fence sitters?

Is there even anyone on here who thinks that there shouldn't be a legally binding referendum vote?

 

[J Ed]

lol is this an anti-Semitic reference?

 

[T & P]

I suspect the lightning fast exodus of companies and banks in the days after the referendum with countless more to follow if they had started the secession process, coupled with their snowball-in-hell chance of being admitted to the EU, might have made Puigdemont think twice about going full steam ahead, for now at least.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Article in the i about how some (but certainly not all) of the photos of fascist salutes were not what they were represented to be. (Some of the most striking were from a rally in Madrid by supporters of the Falange Española de las Jons, which took place at separate location to the main pro-unity rally in the city, and which numbered about thirty people). The article also lists a small number of other social media 'hoaxes' around the 'referendum' and its aftermath.

The misinformation being shared about Catalonia, fascism and police brutality - i news

Now as it happens I don't have the slightest doubt that there will have been fascists at pro-unity rallies. Mobilizations on nationalist lines will attract all kinds of nationalists.

I also have no doubt that pro-independence rallies will have included members and supporters of the populist far right anti-immigrant party Plataforma per Catalunya. But it would be just as misleading to characterize the whole of the independence movement on the basis of their presence as it is to suggest that pro-unity rallies are defined by the presence of fascists.

Interclassist identitarian movements will by definition find odd and incompatible elements travelling together.

You are talking right out of your arse. Plataforma for Catalunya are fascists and hate independence. There are literally hundreds of videos of fascists in Barcelona last sunday, attacking people in the street, on the trains and even each other. Spanish nationlism brought to the streets of Catalonia is reactionary whatever way you look at it. A large group of fash made up of Falange, Vox, DM and Plataforma for Catalonia marched from a police station in the Eixample to the unity march. Waving the spanish flag in Catalonia is an act of bigotry only comparable with waving the union jack in Ireland. Please do some proper research before posting because your post sounds like government propaganda.

 

[Anudder Oik]

The 72 independentista politicians (out of 135) in the catalan parliament are about to sign the declaration of independence, albeit deferred to (a couple of weeks or when there is dialogue). Something has gone on behind the scenes, there was a heated debate in a side room which delayed the session by an hour.

IS europe applying pressure? Were the PP threatening to escalate the violence to another level?

Convoy of spanish police vans driving around Barcelona, as I write this, with sirens blaring and nowhere to go, showing that they are in fact a political police with an opinion on this matter.

Rajoy's advisors are using dolls to try to explain to him the context of what is happening in Catalonia.

[VÍDEOS] La policia espanyola surt a provocar amb un gran desplegament a Barcelona i la gent l’escridassa

 

[Anudder Oik]

Is the Slovenian route one to be emulated?

 

[Wilf]

Admittedly, there weren't many options open to him, but there's little logic to this. Banging on about a need for dialogue is the sort of thing people say in these circumstances, but doesn't fit with the claim this was a valid referendum.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Is it, then how do you address the criticism made in the piece Lurdan translated and BA re-posted?

I have read the first half of this document. Lurdan is either an idiot or a troll.

The first paragraph is full of outright lies, it refers to "extreme authoritarianism", "refusal of debate", "accusing people of being fascists for descenting", "harrasment", "threats". It describes Omnium as ultra- nationalists who telephone people and oblige them to vote. This is all absolute lies. Who the fuck wrote this shit? It reads like spanish nationalist anti catalan propaganda. I see no difference here with the government lies of the PP. This guy is really making shit up. A troll or fash. No evidence is given. Are people expected to believe this article which produces zero proof of its accusations? Seriously, worst analysis I've ever read.

Paragraph 2: National question displaces social struggle.

The wierd reasoning here is that the 15m movement disappeared because of the upsurge in catalan nationalism, yet in spain, where there is no such process the 15m has also abated or gone a different route, ie, Podemos. So much for that theory.

Struggle here continues and the process is in effect politicing more people. The anti-capitalist CUP has grown over 150% in 4 years. There is the anti-eviction movement, which is active every month, there are strikes and there are campaigns against cuts. Your man is bullshitting. He hasn't been here and knows nothing.

Next paragraph. The right to self determination:

Apparently the catalans are disqualified because they are rich and are not oppressed by a colonialist power. Tell that to the catalans. Massive pockets of poverty and a collective memory that recalls state murders, violence, banned language, and imposition of a corrupt spanish state apparatus which scoffs at democracy. The fact they haven't risen up in arms like in the Basque or Ireland doesn't make their claim to self determination less qualified. I know people who were forced to drink castor oil by Guardia civil for speaking catalan. The spanish state which calls for unity openly despises the catalans. One block from where I live there is a plaque of an 18 year old who was thrown from a roof to his death by police in the 70's. Again the writer of this piece can fuck off. The catalans have been held against there will for 300 years by spanish colonialism a fact which the author appears to willfully ignore.

Umpteenth paragraph. The spanish minority would become oppressed: Ok, that's enough, the guy writing this is making everything up. Talking out of his A hole.

He's having a laugh at gullible people.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Article in the i about how some (but certainly not all) of the photos of fascist salutes were not what they were represented to be. (Some of the most striking were from a rally in Madrid by supporters of the Falange Española de las Jons, which took place at separate location to the main pro-unity rally in the city, and which numbered about thirty people). The article also lists a small number of other social media 'hoaxes' around the 'referendum' and its aftermath.

The misinformation being shared about Catalonia, fascism and police brutality - i news

Now as it happens I don't have the slightest doubt that there will have been fascists at pro-unity rallies. Mobilizations on nationalist lines will attract all kinds of nationalists.

I also have no doubt that pro-independence rallies will have included members and supporters of the populist far right anti-immigrant party Plataforma per Catalunya. But it would be just as misleading to characterize the whole of the independence movement on the basis of their presence as it is to suggest that pro-unity rallies are defined by the presence of fascists.

Interclassist identitarian movements will by definition find odd and incompatible elements travelling together.

Lurdan, You are either extremely ill informed or extremely dodgy. Why would anyone try to deny or even play down the fascist element on the unity march last sunday in Barcelona. It's bigotry alone speaks for itself. Who are you defending?

 

[Raheem]

Is the Slovenian route one to be emulated?

The key thing that Slovenia had that the Catalan nationalists lack is a professional army.

 

[T & P]

Admittedly, there weren't many options open to him, but there's little logic to this. Banging on about a need for dialogue is the sort of thing people say in these circumstances, but doesn't fit with the claim this was a valid referendum.

Of course it isn’t a valid referendum. For one it had no legal basis. But even if one chose to ignore the legal status on the argument that they would have never been allowed to hold it by the central government anyway, it was still a poorly attended poll and one with a catalogue of voting irregularities that makes the average Zimbabwean election look like a shining example of transparent elections. Some people managed to vote five times ffs.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Of course it isn’t a valid referendum. For one it had no legal basis. But even if one chose to ignore the legal status on the argument that they would have never been allowed to hold it by the central government anyway, it was still a poorly attended poll and one with a catalogue of voting irregularities that makes the average Zimbabwean election look like a shining example of transparent elections. Some people managed to vote five times ffs.

That catalans have asked 17 times for a legal referendum and have always been refused. They asked for a mock one and were even refused the legality for that. Sometimes people have to go beyond the so called accepted law. Rosa Parks broke the law, Mandela, Sufragettes, united states independence, Mass trespasses. Nothing would progress if everyone obediantly obeyed every stiff and interested law. Then there is the irony of who barks the most about legality and the constitution in Spain, the PP, a party with contempt for democracy and over 1000 members pending trial.

All ID cards registered to vote were centralized on a computer database, so that anyone voting more than once would be detected. Some were detected in situ at the polling stations but the whole online registration system was hacked and brought down no less than 15 times by state hackers the day of polling and then there were the violent police attacks. It was put back up again and again by the catalan authorities. People waited patiently for up to 4 hours to vote. I saw them.

However, what would be done later on once it was discovered someone had voted 4 times, I don't know. They would have to discount votes somehow, but which?

 

[gosub]

Of course it isn’t a valid referendum. For one it had no legal basis. But even if one chose to ignore the legal status on the argument that they would have never been allowed to hold it by the central government anyway, it was still a poorly attended poll and one with a catalogue of voting irregularities that makes the average Zimbabwean election look like a shining example of transparent elections. Some people managed to vote five times ffs.

My understanding is that for a legal one ALL of Spain has to have a say (as the constitution stands)... Who thinks Pedro should stop paying for our lunch? A tricky referendum to win.

 

[Anudder Oik]

My understanding is that for a legal one ALL of Spain has to have a say (as the constitution stands)... Who thinks Pedro should stop paying for our lunch? A tricky referendum to win.

That would really be useful wouldn't it. A woman's husband beats her up, she files for divorce, his family get to vote on whether they are going to let her go.

 

[DaveCinzano]

The key thing that Slovenia had that the Catalan nationalists lack is a professional army.

Well, it's difficult to argue that Slovenia in 1990/1991 had its own professional army. Like the other Yugoslav republics it had a military reserve force. The Slovenian government in the lead up to the brief war with the Federal authorities created a clandestine command-and-control framework which took control of the ‘Territorial Defence’ force and the police, in parallel to the official structures in place since Tito's time. Much of the actual fighting was carried out by specialist police units, which tended to be better equipped and armed (thanks in no small part to illegal weapons smuggled in from Germany, Singapore and elsewhere).

 

[T & P]

My understanding is that for a legal one ALL of Spain has to have a say (as the constitution stands)... Who thinks Pedro should stop paying for our lunch? A tricky referendum to win.

I do agree to a large degree. At the end of the day the powers that be, in any country through any period in history, will use their established control over their local legal system to snuff out any hostile action.

My beef with this however is that the referendum result is in no way representative or a reliable indicator of the population of Catalonia's wishes on the issue. Regardless of the irregularities, the overwhelming majority of those against secession simply boycotted the referendum. Historically the pro-independence movement have never, ever managed more than 30-40% on polls. Nobody can possibly claim this extremely fucked up referendum is a fair and representative veredict on the people's views on the issue, and declaring independence on the back of it is as much of a cunt's trick as Rajoy's thug tactics to prevent the vote.

 

[Raheem]

The Slovenian government in the lead up to the brief war with the Federal authorities created a clandestine command-and-control framework which took control of the ‘Territorial Defence’ force and the police, in parallel to the official structures in place since Tito's time.

I don't see this doesn't constitute a professional army. But, whether it does or it doesn't, Slovenia wouldn't have attained independence without it, which is my point.

 

[gosub]

I do agree to a large degree. At the end of the day the powers that be, in any country through any period in history, will use their established control over their local legal system to snuff out any hostile action.

My beef with this however is that the referendum result is in no way representative or a reliable indicator of the population of Catalonia's wishes on the issue. Regardless of the irregularities, the overwhelming majority of those against secession simply boycotted the referendum. Historically the pro-independence movement have never, ever managed more than 30-40% on polls. Nobody can possibly claim this extremely fucked up referendum is a fair and representative veredict on the people's views on the issue, and declaring independence on the back of it is as much of a cunt's trick as Rajoy's thug tactics to prevent the vote.

Agree entirely.

 

[tim]

Is the Slovenian route one to be emulated?

Slovenia had little to lose by splitting from Yugoslavia and had substantial political support from Germany and Austria. A Catalonian UDI would sever itself not just from Spain but it also from the EU it would not in favourably by France and as it wouldn't serve German interests by Berlin either.

 

[redsquirrel]

I have read the first half of this document. Lurdan is either an idiot or a troll.

Well you obviously haven't read it very closely (no change there then) or you'd know that it wasn't written by @Lurden at all.

<snip> A troll or fash. <snip>

Rather nicely illustrating the claim the author of the piece made about how anyone criticising independence becomes a fascist. (Also hilarious this coming from someone who's posted up shit from right filth like Tim Pool).

Apparently the catalans are disqualified because they are rich and are not oppressed by a colonialist power. Tell that to the catalans.

That catalans have asked 17 times for a legal referendum and have always been refused. They asked for a mock one and were even refused the legality for that.

Amazing how the quickly the nationalism comes out.

 

[Poi E]

I don't see this doesn't constitute a professional army. But, whether it does or it doesn't, Slovenia wouldn't have attained independence without it, which is my point.

Milosevic and Tudjman had bigger fish to fry than Slovenia.

 

[Wilf]

Of course it isn’t a valid referendum. For one it had no legal basis. But even if one chose to ignore the legal status on the argument that they would have never been allowed to hold it by the central government anyway, it was still a poorly attended poll and one with a catalogue of voting irregularities that makes the average Zimbabwean election look like a shining example of transparent elections. Some people managed to vote five times ffs.

I don't think the legal basis of the ref is the issue - I don't give a fuck about the disapproval of the Spanish State or the Catalan Constitutional Court. It had a (messy) validity in that a majority of the Parliament voted for it. The problematic issues are that it was boycotted and that support for independence has never been, afaik, at 50%+.

In terms of the vote, yes, it was boycotted and turnout was 42% - a problem. But that wasn't just down to the boycott - you seem to be ignoring the fact that the GC attacked people trying to vote, along the 'stolen ballots'. There's at least a chance that without the repression, turnout would have been over 50%. FWIW, if I was Catlan, I'd be taking the CNT line on the whole thing and there was certainly an opportunism in the way Puigdemont et al set the whole referendum up. But it's also wrong to dismiss it as some kind of sub-Mugabe escapade.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Well you obviously haven't read it very closely (no change there then) or you'd know that it wasn't written by @Lurden at all.

Rather nicely illustrating the claim the author of the piece made about how anyone criticising independence becomes a fascist. (Also hilarious this coming from someone who's posted up shit from right filth like Tim Pool).



Amazing how the quickly the nationalism comes out.

That's a very poor answer. You've got a crap document there translated by Lurdan that openly lies and doesn't even address the historic context or the role of the heinous ultra conservative PP government. It clumsily wades in heavily against one nationalism (attempt at self determination) on the false pretext that it is fascistic/authoritarian whilst suspiciously holding back on it's attacks on the real monster.Lurdan has also tried to dismiss the fascist presence on the spanish nationalist demo in Barcelona last sunday which in itslef was a mass show of cultural fascism. How would you analyse that?

What is your take on the PP government's stance throughout this process?