Spanish Political News

[Anudder Oik]

An independent Catalonia would be a third country until it became a member. There isn't a mechanism for UDI and automatic retention of membership rights.

And given the number of EU states troubled by secessionists, there would be every political incentive to follow the process with caution.

It's not a matter of "expulsion" at all. Pretending that the EU is being evil unless it supports something you're romantically attached to is arch-Brexiteer nonsense.

It took those cunts in Brussels long enough to condemn the violence, but well, what the fuck, I like croissants.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Blind optimism and no plan is a recipe for disaster when seeking independence.

Over 300 studies commissioned by the catalan government and other organizations, say otherwise.

 

[redsquirrel]

The movement for independence is not a regime it is a mass movement of peaceful people and in essence is progressive.

Is it, then how do you address the criticism made in the piece Lurdan translated and BA re-posted?

 

[Anudder Oik]

Is it, then how do you address the criticism made in the piece Lurdan translated and BA re-posted?

There's a lot to that document and I agree with the criticism, as do many independentistas, that the catalan elite jumped on the bandwagon when fingers were being pointed at them, in order to use it as a distraction. It is only partially correct in stating that other issues are seemingly on hold, yet, there are defence campaigns against cuts, anti eviction activity and even successful strikes (dockers/metro/bus) going on parallel to the process. I would say that the catalan elite are playing a suicidal game, where once independence is gained attention will be turned on them in a much more magnified form.

I'll try to get some answers from the CUP for you.

Point 4, the comparison with Ukraine is an extreme example. Economists here point to Checkoslavia as an example.

 

[butchersapron]

Potentially useful liveblog.

Noted this:

• The chief judge of the High Court of Justice of Catalonia (TSJC) places responsibility for its security in the hands of the Spanish National Police.

 

[tim]

That FT article says that Catalonia would be expelled automatically from the eurozone. Like fuck it would. It wouldn't make neither political nor economic sense.

It would for Spain and Spain as an EU member has the power to veto Catalonia's entry into the EU and the Euro. During the Scottish referendum, they were quite open about their unwillingness to allow Scotland to remain in the EU automatically. Catalonia's problems would be make Brexit look civil and well-managed.

 

[tim]

France, Belgium and Cyprus would probably also veto being keen to maintain their own territorial integrity.

If you want to see a precedent, just look at the status of Northern Cyprus. It has a government but one which is only recognised by Turkey. The EU considers it's territory as of the Republic of Cyprus (Greek speaking Southern Cyprus) even though the Southerners have no control of the land.

 

[Poi E]

The EU considers it's territory as of the Republic of Cyprus (Greek speaking Southern Cyprus) even though the Southerners have no control of the land.

The EU position reflects the position under international law since 1974. I'm not sure it works as an analogy as you are dealing with invasion rather than secession.

 

[tim]

The EU position reflects the position under international law since 1974. I'm not sure it works as an analogy as you are dealing with invasion rather than secession.

True the Turkish invasion does muddy the issue, although we shouldn't forget that this was provoked by a coup backed by the Fascist Junta ruling Greece at the time, and who I think sent in troops before the Turks.

Perhaps, but the Republic of Somalialand is a better parallel. It's fairly democratic, well-governed and seceded from the less democratic and war torn Somalia about 30 years ago. It is not officially recognised by any other state but has informal relations with some. Somaliland

 

[Anudder Oik]

A sad day in Valencia. The traditional 9th of october march presided by progressive organizations, who invited a delegation of the anti-capitalist CUP from Catalonia to attend, has been visciously attacked and almost dispersed this afternoon by fascists who are now emboldened by the ultra right government assault being carried out in Catalonia to supress the right to freedom of expression there. The march was cut in two by a horde of fascists who were allowed by the police to take control of the route of the march.

The ugly face of fascistic spanish nationalism is rearing its head while the european union sits on its capitalist arse and does nothing.

 

[butchersapron]

How many fascist are there hiding in catalonia?

 

[Silas Loom]

A sad day in Valencia. The traditional 9th of october march presided by progressive organizations, who invited a delegation of the anti-capitalist CUP from Catalonia to attend, has been visciously attacked and almost dispersed this afternoon by fascists who are now emboldened by the ultra right government assault being carried out in Catalonia to supress the right to freedom of expression there. The march was cut in two by a horde of fascists who were allowed by the police to take control of the route of the march.

The ugly face of fascistic spanish nationalism is rearing its head while the european union sits on its capitalist arse and does nothing.

What's your agenda w/r/t the EU? If you were just an enthusiast for Catalonia, you'd be frothing about Rajoy. Instead, you are determined to crowbar the EU - and, even, croissants - into all your simplistic and binary stuff about progressives v fascists.

It's odd.

 

[Wilf]

What's your agenda w/r/t the EU? If you were just an enthusiast for Catalonia, you'd be frothing about Rajoy. Instead, you are determined to crowbar the EU - and, even, croissants - into all your simplistic and binary stuff about progressives v fascists.

It's odd.

The EU supporting Spain is predictable, but still worth mentioning. The violence of the Spanish state is even more worth mentioning. The real flaw is that the Catalan people don't actually support full independence. As you say, that means it's nothing like a simple battle between fash and 'progressives'.

 

[Anudder Oik]

What's your agenda w/r/t the EU? If you were just an enthusiast for Catalonia, you'd be frothing about Rajoy. Instead, you are determined to crowbar the EU - and, even, croissants - into all your simplistic and binary stuff about progressives v fascists.

It's odd.

On october the first there was a massive violent assault aimed at the catalan people. The police smashed into people on Rajoy's government's orders, the extreme right is on the rise and I am furious at events, not just with the PP and the fash but with the european council as they virtually turned round the day after and said that they "trusted" Rajoy. That has given the PP carte blanch and today the events in Valencia are a boomerang effect of that free hand. I would say that anyone who trusts the EU is worse than dodgy, not someone who questions it.

 

[Silas Loom]

The EU supporting Spain is predictable, but still worth mentioning. The violence of the Spanish state is even more worth mentioning. The real flaw is that the Catalan people don't actually support full independence. As you say, that means it's nothing like a simple battle between fash and 'progressives'.

Yeah, that sounds like the right order to put things in. What on earth "full independence" could possibly mean, and whether even a sizeable minority of Catalans would sign up for any fully articulated vision of it, is a further obstacle to presenting this as Narnia v Mordor.

 

[Silas Loom]

On october the first there was a massive violent assault aimed at the catalan people. The police smashed into people on Rajoy's government's orders, the extreme right is on the rise and I am furious at events, not just with the PP and the fash but with the european council as they virtually turned round the day after and said that they "trusted" Rajoy. That has given the PP carte blanch and today the events in Valencia are a boomerang effect of that free hand. I would say that anyone who trusts the EU is worse than dodgy, not someone who questions it.

I suspect that Rajoy was as bothered about what the EU council might have had to say about heavy handed policing as he was about how it might play on Urban. He'd have been horrified if the EU was supportive of UDI, but there was never any chance of that. Policing just isn't a supranational concern.

It's a huge jump to say that the EU gave him carte blanche, anyway.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You've clearly had a traumatic experience in Marbella at some point

Haven't we all?

 

[Lurdan]

Article in the i about how some (but certainly not all) of the photos of fascist salutes were not what they were represented to be. (Some of the most striking were from a rally in Madrid by supporters of the Falange Española de las Jons, which took place at separate location to the main pro-unity rally in the city, and which numbered about thirty people). The article also lists a small number of other social media 'hoaxes' around the 'referendum' and its aftermath.

The misinformation being shared about Catalonia, fascism and police brutality - i news

Now as it happens I don't have the slightest doubt that there will have been fascists at pro-unity rallies. Mobilizations on nationalist lines will attract all kinds of nationalists.

I also have no doubt that pro-independence rallies will have included members and supporters of the populist far right anti-immigrant party Plataforma per Catalunya. But it would be just as misleading to characterize the whole of the independence movement on the basis of their presence as it is to suggest that pro-unity rallies are defined by the presence of fascists.

Interclassist identitarian movements will by definition find odd and incompatible elements travelling together.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

"just as misleading" oh what a cesspit of apologism is represented by this classic of false equivalence.....

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Mealy mouthed fence sitting is epidemic now. Justified by the usual alleged political corruption - existing on both sides to some extent - the existence of a handful of rightists and a few dodgy images on one side. (As opposed to the masses of fascists and mass media manipulation on the side of the status quo)
As interesting to watch the apologists for PP fascism as it has been to watch the apologists for Erdogan. Particularly in the "liberal" Guardian and i newspapers.

Neither the CUP nor the YPG/SDF are perfect and both have embarrassing allies, and few pretend otherwise. But it is interesting to see certain people lay into both Rojava/Kurdistan and Catalonia when they are clearly faced by authoritarian demagogues. It is noted.

 

[gosub]

4pm.

 

[magneze]

So, what's going to happen then?

 

[tim]

So, what's going to happen then?

A climb-dowm

 

[Wilf]

I'm confused, thought Madrid were going to stop this session going ahead.

 

[Wilf]

A climb-dowm

Sounds like it:

I am not planning any threat. Any insults. We are all responsible for this. We need de-escalate the situation, not feed it any longer. I want to address everyone about the issue.

We are all part of the same community and we need to go forward together. We will never agree on everything, but we have proved many times that the only way to move forward is with democracy and peace. That requires dialogue.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Advert for a free coach from Santander, courtousy of an iron mongers shop.

View attachment 117401

 

[planetgeli]

So, what's going to happen then?

"Spain's pretty anti-Catalan, Catalonia is the true upholder of Spanish democracy, the police were cunts, let's de-escalate this shit because I can't really back up my threats with action."

Something like that.

 

[planetgeli]

We are not criminals, we are not mad. We are normal people, and we just want to vote. We have been ready to talk and have dialogue. We have nothing against Spain. We want to have a better understanding with Spain. The relationship hasn’t been working for many years, and now it’s unsustainable.

But wait...

 

[1%er]

Spanish radio claiming the police are waiting to arrest Puigdemont if he declares independence, little wonder he taking his time getting to the beef

 

[Lurdan]

Government proposing that independence declaration be suspended to permit dialogue to take place.