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You describe it as a catalan nationalist regime, Everyone here sees it as a continuation of the progressive democratic republic of the 1930's and a break away from the corruption of the PP (1000 councillors pending trial). The aspirations are republican. Everyone here is bilingual to start with and nothing will happen to spanish people living here. There is already linguistic immersion, most classes are taught in catalan at school and at university. My daughter is trilingual. There is no animosity to ordinary spanish, in fact, it is the other way around. A large minority of spanish immigrants show hate towards catalans, the flag waving and aggresive demos bear me out on this; "A por ellos" "viva la guardia civil". Many spanish migrants want independence, too. Ruffian, one of the most outspoken indepentistas is a spanish catalan. The backward Iberians you mention are the ones in Barcelona today spreading hate, they don't represent all of Spain but the other progressive side of spain is extremely quiet these days.

Is absolutely everyone really billingual? What rights do you think Spanish speakers will have under their new rulers? Will they have the trigger to be educated and have their children educated in Spanish? You talk of Spanish immigrants, will that be the status of non-Catalan Spanish speakers in the new state? How should the new regime treat members of that large minority of Spanish "immigrants" who you claim continue to show hate towards Catlans"?
 
Is absolutely everyone really billingual? What rights do you think Spanish speakers will have under their new rulers? Will they have the trigger to be educated and have their children educated in Spanish? You talk of Spanish immigrants, will that be the status of non-Catalan Spanish speakers in the new state? How should the new regime treat members of that large minority of Spanish "immigrants" who you claim continue to show hate towards Catlans"?

Most education is already in catalan. If someone older doesn't speak catalan, it's because they don't want to. If someone comes here from say, Burgos, and doesn't learn catalan that's fine but they can fuck off if they think they can start throwing their weight around shouting that the catalans shouldn't be allowed to vote for their own future.

There is not going to be a pogrom. The people who are having their rights trampled here are the catalans not the spanish, and it has been brutal, first with the police, then with the judges and now with hordes of fascists bussed in to Barcelona.

Just up, there are reports of attacks against people in the street now and throwing stones at apartments with catalan flags

 
The unionists are turning violent in Barcelona now. Here's a specimen with a Harry Potter T-Shirt. Now tell me, of the supposed 300,000 on this march today, who have come from all over Spain, how many have progressive politics?

DLoICILX0AI-bNV.jpg
 
Is absolutely everyone really billingual? What rights do you think Spanish speakers will have under their new rulers? Will they have the trigger to be educated and have their children educated in Spanish? You talk of Spanish immigrants, will that be the status of non-Catalan Spanish speakers in the new state? How should the new regime treat members of that large minority of Spanish "immigrants" who you claim continue to show hate towards Catlans"?

You should really be worrying about the rights spaniards have under their present rulers. The PP.
 
If someone comes here from say, Burgos, and doesn't learn catalan that's fine but they can fuck off if they think they can start throwing their weight around shouting that the catalans shouldn't be allowed to vote for their own future.

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Would you accept that they would have a right to campaign against independence in a free and fair referendum? Would you accept that a vote against independence where elderly recalcitrant like those cited swung the vote?

Is anyone living in Catalunya a Catalan or do you see it as an ethnocultural identity?
 
Would you accept that they would have a right to campaign against independence in a free and fair referendum? Would you accept that a vote against independence where elderly recalcitrant like those cited swung the vote?

Is anyone living in Catalunya a Catalan or do you see it as an ethnocultural identity?

The referendum campaign did all it could to encourage people to vote yes or no. There were 170,000 no votes. They were very clear about that. The independentistas are peaceful and democratic and so a no campaign would have absolutely no problem in particpating. The result of the referendum would have to be accepted. The children of spanish immigrants are free to consider themselves catalans. Unfortunately, a number clings onto an exclusive spanish identity, which is hostile to catalans and would naturally mean them being culturally fascistic and unintegrated, imo.
 
Would you accept that they would have a right to campaign against independence in a free and fair referendum? Would you accept that a vote against independence where elderly recalcitrant like those cited swung the vote?

Is anyone living in Catalunya a Catalan or do you see it as an ethnocultural identity?

The person you are talking to is a Brit who seems to have been integrated within the world of Catalan Nationalism so that probably answers your question/
 
You should really be worrying about the rights spaniards have under their present rulers. The PP.

I don't find the PPP attractive, post but I'm not not drawn to the rhetoric of the Catalan Nationalists in power in Barcelona, either. The referendum was clearly not free or fair with the Spanish forces on the streets attacking and intimidating people; and confiscating ballot boxes and papers; polling stations that were open were under the control of people like you who supported independence so we're hardly an environment in which unionists would feel comfortable. Consequently, the only a minority were either able or willing to vote. Despite this the Catalan government claim they have a mandate to secede. The intransigence and brutality of the Spanish government created this mess, but the Catalan government can't seriously claim to reflect the view of voters in declaring independence. We don't know what the view of the people is.
 
The children of spanish immigrants are free to consider themselves catalans. Unfortunately, a number clings onto an exclusive spanish identity, which is hostile to catalans and would naturally mean them being culturally fascistic and unintegrated, imo.

I can't see how migrants within a unitary state can be classed as immigrants subsequent to part of that state seceding. And whilst it's generous for you to grant their children the right to class themselves as Catalans, I don't see why those parents are not also so classed.

You also have learnt have no idea what Fascism really means. Not conforming to supposed Catalan norms does not make you a fascist. Is an anarchist or a Communist or a Liberal or even a Conservative who doesn't feel that they can tick the Catalan box or is unwilling to have that identity imposed upon them really a Fascist?
 
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I'm not convinced that something that ceased to exist 78 years ago could so easily be continued under any circumstances. And I certainly don't see how a Catalan Republic of can be seen as the continuation of the Second Spanish Republic as it excludes most of the latter's territory and is primarily Catalan rather than Spanish speaking

What about the northern Catalans in France - what do they think about independence ?

Northern Catalonia - Wikipedia
 
Guardian reporting that a million unionists took to the streets of Barcelona to say 'enough is enough'.

Catalan leader faces dilemma as silent majority finds its voice

That's a really stupid headline. The majority of the people on that protest were bussed in from thousands of miles away, they don't live here and understand nothing about how people are here. When a man continually beats his wife up and she files for divorce, his distant relatives do not have the right to tell her to stay with him.
 
That's a really stupid headline. The majority of the people on that protest were bussed in from thousands of miles away, they don't live here and understand nothing about how people are here. When a man continually beats his wife up and she files for divorce, his distant relatives do not have the right to tell her to stay with him.
Even Catalonian police have the numbers at >350,000. Thats a hell of a logistical challenge to bus in
 
That's a really stupid headline. The majority of the people on that protest were bussed in from thousands of miles away, they don't live here and understand nothing about how people are here. When a man continually beats his wife up and she files for divorce, his distant relatives do not have the right to tell her to stay with him.

Where exactly where they bussed from, go to because I can't think of anywhere in the in the Spanish mainland that is even a thousand miles from Barcelona?
 
No UDI apparently. Katya Adler (BBC) says an MP from catalan govt has told her "there'll be symbolic recognition of independence referendum this week but no unilateral independece declaration".

Not sure where that leaves things.

If they were still serious about UDI perhaps they could call a snap election and use it as absolute, categorical proxy vote for indy to try and get that clear majority and mandate which IMO they still don't have.
 
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Whereas the disgraceful events of last Sunday will have likely changed the minds of some of the undecided, it is worth remembering that the percentage of those in favour of independence has always hovered in the 40-something percent at best. At least the same amount of people in Catalonia are firmly opposed to a secession. That is several million people.

Regardless on one's views on the right to self-determination, it is blatantly absurd to suggest the majority of those in today's demo had been bussed in. The great majority were Catalans. The fact that some people amongst the pro-independent movement seem to actually deny Catalans with a contrary view exist does their cause no favours.
 
Reuters:

Catalonia will apply a referendum law, which calls for a declaration of independence if a referendum shows a majority in favor, Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says in a television program to be broadcast later on Sunday.

“The declaration of independence, that we don’t call a ‘unilateral’ declaration of independence, is foreseen in the referendum law as an application of the results. We will apply what the law says,” Puigdemont says in the program on Catalonia’s TV3, according to excerpts on the broadcaster’s website.

not sure what that means exactly. announce independence has been chosen, but not announce independence? I doubt people will be convinced by that.
 
Reuters:



not sure what that means exactly. announce independence has been chosen, but not announce independence? I doubt people will be convinced by that.

It seems like, in lieu of UDI, he is going to ask Madrid to consider legislating to make any future referendum binding. I'm not sure how to decode that exactly, but instinctively it feels like a pretty weak punchline for such a dramatic setup.
 
Interesting op ed piece in FT
A Catalan breakaway would make Brexit look like a cake walk
Exiting the EU and currency union at the same time is an economic suicide mission


Catalonia remembered a grim anniversary on Friday. On October 6 1934, the then autonomous Catalan government staged an insurrection and proclaimed independence. It ended with the imprisonment of members of the Catalan government and the suspension of the statute of autonomy. We are not quite at that point today, but we are not far from it. Carles Puigdemont, the Catalan leader, has decided to respect last week’s ban by Spain’s Constitutional Court on Monday’s session of the Catalan parliament, which was scheduled to declare independence. A session on Tuesday will have no such official agenda. Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s prime minister, has said his government may invoke Article 155 of the Spanish constitution to withdraw Catalonia’s autonomy, bringing the region under direct control of Spain. This clearly has the potential to provoke a general insurrection and possibly violent conflict. The Spanish government’s handling of the crisis has triggered a backlash in Catalonia and abroad, where people reacted with horror at pictures of police violence against voters. Catalonia was not on the radar of many international observers. It is also one of the least understood places in Europe. I take no sides as to whether Catalonia is right, or wise, to seek independence. I can think of strong reasons to oppose it. Whether these are sufficient is for the Catalans to decide. What makes Catalan independence much worse than the most extreme version of Brexit is the immediate forced exit from the eurozone The main argument against independence is economic. Independence would constitute a shock of an order of magnitude larger than the hardest of Brexits. It is the legal opinion of all EU institutions that regions that declare independence do not automatically become members of the union. The separatist argument is that the EU could ill-afford to lose a wealthy region that would rank 15th by population among member states. The EU does not want to Catalonia to leave, but it can also not act against Spain. Independence really means third-country status — Catalexit. In that case, Catalan citizens would lose their Spanish and EU citizenship because that privilege exists only in conjunction with the citizenship of a member state. The Catalan version of having your cake and eating it is to hope for dual citizenship. I think this is utterly unrealistic. The border between Spain and Catalonia would become a heavily guarded external border of the EU and the Schengen zone of passport-free travel. Catalans would have to apply for visas if they want travel to Spain or the EU. As a non-member of the World Trade Organization, Catalonia would have no automatic right to reduced WTO tariffs. What makes Catalan independence much worse than the most extreme version of Brexit is the immediate forced exit from the eurozone. Catalexit would constitute a dramatic sudden return of the eurozone crisis. The banking system in one of the world’s wealthiest regions could collapse. This is why two Catalan banks decided last week to shift headquarters to Spain. They want to ensure continued access to funding by the European Central Bank and the Bank of Spain. Catalonia could, in theory, emulate the example of Montenegro, and unilaterally adopt the euro as its currency. But Montenegro is a tiny country with gross domestic product of just over €3bn. Catalonia’s GDP was €224bn last year, larger than Portugal’s. Catalonia is also unprepared to introduce its own currency on independence day. It would be mad to try to run such a large developed economy without a central banking infrastructure. Extricating yourself from the EU is difficult enough, as we can see with the UK. To extricate yourself from a currency union at the same time is an economic suicide mission. The single strongest argument against Catalan independence at this stage is an utter lack of preparation. I would go further and argue that the presence of a monetary union makes a regional independence movement impossible. We know that at least one-third of the Catalan electorate are pro-unionists. More might join their ranks when they realise the threat of economic perdition, especially if it became clear that the EU is not bluffing. The worst option of all is to use force to prevent independence. This strengthens the separatists, and risks bringing about the economic calamity Spain, Catalonia and the EU should all seek to avoid.
 
That FT article says that Catalonia would be expelled automatically from the eurozone. Like fuck it would. It wouldn't make neither political nor economic sense.
 
My father was from Jaen, I am from Jaen, you are from Andalusia.
We only want to vote, nothing more.
We don't want to hurt anyone.
Don't hurt anyone.

 
That FT article says that Catalonia would be expelled automatically from the eurozone. Like fuck it would. It wouldn't make neither political nor economic sense.

An independent Catalonia would be a third country until it became a member. There isn't a mechanism for UDI and automatic retention of membership rights.

And given the number of EU states troubled by secessionists, there would be every political incentive to follow the process with caution.

It's not a matter of "expulsion" at all. Pretending that the EU is being evil unless it supports something you're romantically attached to is arch-Brexiteer nonsense.
 
The numbers in Barcelona cannot be ignored and there were non-violent people on the march despite the whole thing having its essence steeped in colonialism and domination of a small country by a larger more aggressive one. Many of the chants are about the negation of democratic rights of the Catalans. ie, "Puigdemont to jail" and "Catalonia is Spain". Many thousands were mobilized by outright fascist organizations.

It is undeniable that coaches were laid on for free from all over Spain, in order to help swell the ranks. The unionists are numerous in Catalonia but I think a minority.

Advert for a free coach from Santander, courtousy of an iron mongers shop.

Coaches.jpg
 
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