Spanish Political News

[Raheem]

Milosevic and Tudjman had bigger fish to fry than Slovenia.

Another way in which the two cases are not really comparable.

 

[1%er]

Having signed a declaration of independence yesterday (then suspending it), Carles Puigdemont seems to have created some confusion for the Spanish government. The Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy has asked the Catalan government to clarify whether or not it has declared independence and has said he may invoke article 155* of the Spanish constitution to take control of Catalonia.

What Mariano Rajoy said this afternoon is this “The cabinet has agreed this morning to formally require the Catalan government to confirm whether it has declared independence after the deliberate confusion created over whether it has come into effect, this request, which comes before any of the measures that the government could adopt under article 155 of our constitution, is meant to offer our citizens the clarity and security that such an important issue requires. The Catalan president’s answer to this questions will inform what happens over the next few days, if Mr Puigdemont demonstrates a willingness to respect the law and re-establish institutional normality, we could bring a close to a period of instability tension, and the breakdown of co-existence. That is what everyone wants and expects, it’s what they’ve been demanding. We must put an urgent end to the situation in Catalonia. There must be a return to normality and calm as swiftly as possible”.

*Article 155 is the part of Spain’s 1978 constitution that allows the central government of Spain to take control of an autonomous region.

It is highly unlikely Mariano Rajoy will invoke article 155 in my view as that would just cause more civil unrest in Catalonia, unless he wants to put most of Spain's police or the army on the streets.

 

[redsquirrel]

That's a very poor answer. You've got a crap document there translated by Lurdan that openly lies

How does it lie? Specifically.

and doesn't even address the historic context or the role of the heinous ultra conservative PP government.

That's simply false, it does address the recent history, maybe not in the way you like/agree with but it definitely places what's happening now in the context of recent history.

It clumsily wades in heavily against one nationalism (attempt at self determination) on the false pretext that it is fascistic/authoritarian

This is dishonest, fascism and authoritarianism are not synonyms. The piece nowhere describes the independence movement as fascist. It does call the actions of 'the Catalan nationalist case' authoritarian but what's wrong with that.

What is your take on the PP government's stance throughout this process?

I think the PP and PSOE are filth and the repressive violence was appalling. But, unlike some, that doesn't mean I rush to embrace nationalism.

 

[Anudder Oik]

How does it lie? Specifically.

I already answered you that in post 1815. The text you defend is focussed on attacking a movement that seeks to express its right to democratically vote for it's future. It shows zero solidarity with a genuine struggle for democracy against the heirs of the dictatorship. It is therefore reactionary and echoes the arguments of the corrupt spanish ruling party more than anyone concerned with freedom and rights.

Does it try to pretend to represent an anarchist point of view? Someone's having a laugh.

This is what a real anarchist editorial should look like. From Solidaridad Obrera:

Spoiler

Solidaridad Obrera


FOR THE RIGHT TO DECIDE AND AGAINST REPRESSION


On October 1, the majority of the Catalan Parliament has announced the call for a referendum on self-determination. The Central Government has announced that it will prevent it by all means, and have come to threaten by stating that "by land, sea and air, the Armed Forces and the Civil Guard are where they have to protect the integrity and sovereignty of our country". In short, the use of force and repressive rhetoric to prevent a democratic act.


From SOLIDARIDAD OBRERA we are clear that we cannot remain indifferent to the threat of preventing the Catalan people from their legitimate right to decide their future, through a democratic and peaceful act such as voting. Because this is no longer about flags, but about freedom and democratic rights. If we are in favor of the freedom of the people and the emancipation of the working class, how can we not want the same for the people, whether it be the Kurd, the Palestinian or the Catalan?


Our support for the right to self-determination is firm and seamless: PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHAT THEY ARE AND HOW THEY WANT TO ORGANIZE.


We call on all trade union and social organizations, as well as all workers, to defend, in the name of democratic rights and unity of the working class, the right of Catalonia, or of any people, to be decided. Because this recognition and support is also internationalism.


Those who deny the right to self-determination of the people are the heirs of those who created and maintained the repressive and oppressive regime before 78, are the same who reformed in just one week Article 135 of the "untouchable" Constitution, in order to to attack all kinds of social rights under the orders of the EU.

This is an opportunity presented to the working class of the Spanish state as a whole, for several reasons. The first, and most evident, is the fact that the idea of disobedience can sink deep into the collective imaginary. It will be necessary to press for this rebellion to transcend the rigid limits of the new State and its institutions.

WE WANT TO DECIDE IT ALL !. Secondly, the fight for the right to decide represents one of the most important fissures that have opened up on the monolithic wall of the 78th regime. By supporting the Catalan people, the working class of the rest of the territory could finally crumble this state , which is nothing other than the result of Franco's late continuity. Everything will depend on the mobilization and involvement of the working class in this period, but it is already evident that the synergies that are taking place around this popular movement are removing the foundations of what is established. And it will continue to be a popular movement insofar as the working class is not inhibited from defending the democratic rights at stake, so that the correlation of forces is as favorable as possible.
We condemn and reject sharply the threats and repressive actions they are taking from the Government and other institutions against this process, which is part of the repressive policy of the Government and the State itself. SOLIDARIDAD OBRERA calls for REPUDIATING AND MOBILIZING AGAINST ALL REPRESSIVE MEASURES against the Working Class and the people of Catalonia.

We want to show and thank all the solidarity of the Working Class of the rest of the State with the Catalan Working Class and vice versa. We reiterate the need for UNITY of workers to continue fighting against exploitation, social injustice and inequality, for the emancipation, self-management and freedom of the working class, because only through the mobilization and independence of our class we can achieve our legitimate aspirations. Neither the present state nor the resulting states are our goal. Our aim is, now and always, the extinction of States and the overcoming of class society. But weakening government institutions and bursting onto the scene to make our own decisions is a good start.
From SOLIDARIDAD OBRERA we are clearer than ever that NOW it is necessary to say very high that of "If voting was for something, it would be prohibited." To which we add "If they prohibit to vote the 1-O, is that it serves for something"

Barcelona, September 17, 2017

DECLARACIÓN SOBRE EL PROCES DE CATALUNYA – SOLIDARIDAD OBRERA

 

[Anudder Oik]

Guardia Civil in Catalonia. Note the estelada flag on the balcony behind. The image says it all.

 

[phillm]

I have read the first half of this document. Lurdan is either an idiot or a troll.

The first paragraph is full of outright lies, it refers to "extreme authoritarianism", "refusal of debate", "accusing people of being fascists for descenting", "harrasment", "threats". It describes Omnium as ultra- nationalists who telephone people and oblige them to vote. This is all absolute lies. Who the fuck wrote this shit? It reads like spanish nationalist anti catalan propaganda. I see no difference here with the government lies of the PP. This guy is really making shit up. A troll or fash. No evidence is given. Are people expected to believe this article which produces zero proof of its accusations? Seriously, worst analysis I've ever read.

Paragraph 2: National question displaces social struggle.

The wierd reasoning here is that the 15m movement disappeared because of the upsurge in catalan nationalism, yet in spain, where there is no such process the 15m has also abated or gone a different route, ie, Podemos. So much for that theory.

Struggle here continues and the process is in effect politicing more people. The anti-capitalist CUP has grown over 150% in 4 years. There is the anti-eviction movement, which is active every month, there are strikes and there are campaigns against cuts. Your man is bullshitting. He hasn't been here and knows nothing.

Next paragraph. The right to self determination:

Apparently the catalans are disqualified because they are rich and are not oppressed by a colonialist power. Tell that to the catalans. Massive pockets of poverty and a collective memory that recalls state murders, violence, banned language, and imposition of a corrupt spanish state apparatus which scoffs at democracy. The fact they haven't risen up in arms like in the Basque or Ireland doesn't make their claim to self determination less qualified. I know people who were forced to drink castor oil by Guardia civil for speaking catalan. The spanish state which calls for unity openly despises the catalans. One block from where I live there is a plaque of an 18 year old who was thrown from a roof to his death by police in the 70's. Again the writer of this piece can fuck off. The catalans have been held against there will for 300 years by spanish colonialism a fact which the author appears to willfully ignore.

Umpteenth paragraph. The spanish minority would become oppressed: Ok, that's enough, the guy writing this is making everything up. Talking out of his A hole.

He's having a laugh at gullible people.

My father (R.I.P) forced us to drink castor oil as kids if we farted in the car (absolutely true) and I love his memory to bits 25 years after his death. That's pretty low in the pecking order for a Spanish Inquisition.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Having signed a declaration of independence yesterday (then suspending it), Carles Puigdemont seems to have created some confusion for the Spanish government. The Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy has asked the Catalan government to clarify whether or not it has declared independence and has said he may invoke article 155* of the Spanish constitution to take control of Catalonia.

What Mariano Rajoy said this afternoon is this “The cabinet has agreed this morning to formally require the Catalan government to confirm whether it has declared independence after the deliberate confusion created over whether it has come into effect, this request, which comes before any of the measures that the government could adopt under article 155 of our constitution, is meant to offer our citizens the clarity and security that such an important issue requires. The Catalan president’s answer to this questions will inform what happens over the next few days, if Mr Puigdemont demonstrates a willingness to respect the law and re-establish institutional normality, we could bring a close to a period of instability tension, and the breakdown of co-existence. That is what everyone wants and expects, it’s what they’ve been demanding. We must put an urgent end to the situation in Catalonia. There must be a return to normality and calm as swiftly as possible”.

*Article 155 is the part of Spain’s 1978 constitution that allows the central government of Spain to take control of an autonomous region.

It is highly unlikely Mariano Rajoy will invoke article 155 in my view as that would just cause more civil unrest in Catalonia, unless he wants to put most of Spain's police or the army on the streets.

You are underestimating the stubborn stupidity of Spains rulers whose mindset is firmly lodged in the pre 78 era. Rajoy has actually said today that the 155 law is starting to roll and that Puigdemont has until thursday to explain whether he has declared Independence or not. All the explanations using dolls didn't work.

The message going round is that in 15 days independence will be declared but that the pause was to allow for things to cool down as the tension was reaching boiling point. People were taken aback at first but now the majority agree it was the best move. The problem is that europe will not mediate and Rajoy will not negotiate.

I think Puigdemont narrowly avoided arrest yesterday. I disagree with the idea of Puigdemont having to "respect the law" and "reestablish institutional normality". Here in Spain that means accepting a steady erosion of democracy under the dominance of europes most corrupt party. They have so many members pending trial there is sufficient evidence to have them outlawed as a party.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Understand this, The constitution, so frequently referred to by the PP and the PSOE to declare the catalan people's vote illegal, was voted for in 1978 by people who felt threatened by the prospect of another civil war or the return to power of the still active fascist apparatus. It is a constitution that needs to be amended, however, Spain has made hardly any progress in the last 40 years. Catalonia has, and it shows.

 

[Pickman's model]

Here in Spain that means accepting a steady erosion of democracy under the dominance of europes most corrupt party. They have so many members pending trial there is sufficient evidence to have them outlawed as a party.

Oh? Do tell more

 

[Anudder Oik]

Oh? Do tell more

La ley de mordaza, for a start. The refusal to allow people to vote in a referendum for seconds. The recurrence to mass brutal violence and legal assault instead of dialogue for third.

 

[Pickman's model]

La ley de mordaza, for a start. The refusal to allow people to vioote in a referendum for seconds.

Neither of those are members of a political party. I'm disappointed.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Neither of those are members of a political party. I'm disappointed.

Oh you mean the second part of my post. Try putting this in a translator. It's over a year old so the number of accused (835) has probably risen since then.

It kind of translates as. The 31 cases with 835 accused which haunts the PP. Noone in the PP ever resigns.

Los 31 casos con sus 835 imputados que acorralan al PP

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh you mean the second part of my post. Try putting this in a translator. It's over a year old so the number of accused (835) has probably risen since then.

It kind of translates as. The 31 cases with 835 accused which haunts the PP. Noone in the PP ever resigns.

Los 31 casos con sus 835 imputados que acorralan al PP

Ta

 

[Anudder Oik]

The map of Corruption of the PP in Spain.

 

[Riklet]

Interesting pic. Cant vouch for 100% accuracy but shows politicians and local officials arrested and charged for corruption as of 2017. Catalonia top of the list.

But Cataluña is obviously squeeky clean super honest central Europe blah blah blah. Snort!!!

Regardless of what many pro Brexit peeps think on Urban, we also need to accept that an independent Catalonia is up against some tough cookies if it leaves Spain but wants to argue with the EU on membership (something undoubtedly the majority of the population would want)

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Interesting pic. Cant vouch for 100% accuracy but shows politicians and local officials arrested and charged for corruption as of 2017. Catalonia top of the list.

But Cataluña is obviously squeeky clean super honest central Europe blah blah blah. Snort!!!

Regardless of what many pro Brexit peeps think on Urban, we also need to accept that an independent Catalonia is up against some tough cookies if it leaves Spain but wants to argue with the EU on membership (something undoubtedly the majority of the population would want)

I'd have thought, perhaps naively, that an independent Catalonia would not face many problems from the EU staying in the EU....? It's leaving the EU that's problematic... Isn't it?

 

[Pickman's model]

The map of Corruption of the PP in Spain.

Yeh. Why are a load of dots outside Spain, chuck? When did the PP begin to organise in portugal?

 

[redsquirrel]

I already answered you that in post 1815.

No you didn't and you still haven't. Saying that it's lies is not the same as showing evidence.

The text you defend is focussed on attacking a movement that seeks to express its right to democratically vote for it's future. It shows zero solidarity with a genuine struggle for democracy against the heirs of the dictatorship. It is therefore reactionary and echoes the arguments of the corrupt spanish ruling party more than anyone concerned with freedom and rights.

Even if all that was true, that doesn't mean that it contains a single lie. It's perfectly possible for a piece to be reactionary rubbish and still to be factually true.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeh. Why are a load of dots outside Spain, chuck? When did the PP begin to organise in portugal?

Anudder Oik answer pls

 

[redsquirrel]

The map of Corruption of the PP in Spain.

Has anyone on this thread defended the PP, no. So what's the relevance of this picture?

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Alcala de Henares seems to be the name of virtually every single town in Spain on that map. The pattern of corruption in Alcala has been duplicated across the whole map. It looks like a duvet cover.

It's definitely bad, perhaps not as bad as that, but so would be a (not faked) map of PSOE corruption and ones of the main nationalist or regionalist parties in their respective regions.

However only the PP can trace its unbroken lineage back to Francoism, which has its own special resonance with the deployment of the Guardia Civil in the streets of Catalonia. The GC is not exactly an organisation of cuddly bobbies: they live in barracks and back when there was military service it could be done in the GC.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Anudder Oik answer pls

Poor photoshop skills?

 

[Anudder Oik]

Interesting pic. Cant vouch for 100% accuracy but shows politicians and local officials arrested and charged for corruption as of 2017. Catalonia top of the list.

But Cataluña is obviously squeeky clean super honest central Europe blah blah blah. Snort!!!

Regardless of what many pro Brexit peeps think on Urban, we also need to accept that an independent Catalonia is up against some tough cookies if it leaves Spain but wants to argue with the EU on membership (something undoubtedly the majority of the population would want)

There are a lot more cases of corruption in what is called the catalan countries. Catalonia, Valencia and the balearic islands. The PP in the whole peninsula has around 1000 members accused, pending trial or even let off but there are over 800 accused in the catalan speaking parts mentioned above. The breakdown is this: 252 PP, 212 PSOE, 26 CIU, 161 property developers, 25 mafia.
The CUP, the anti-capitalist independentistas who have representation in many town halls and in the catalan parliament have taken and passed anti-corruption measures in parliament. They are very active going after cases and have really stirred up a hornets nest of hate from the other parties who are desperate to cover up. The CUP have taken democracy to them and shoved it in their fat faces. There are more politicians about to fall. In the council meetings the representatives of the PSC (PSOE) and PP openly insult and swear at the CUP people. That's how shaken up they are by their presence.
David Fernandez, ex cup has set up an organization to track corruption but their website with all the details is down (for some reason).

here's a graphic they produced:

 

[camouflage]

i'm starting to get the impression that this whole issue is about more than Spains annoyance at the Catalans habit of building towers out of themselves.

Spain: "And if you topple over- who do you expect to clean up the mess? Aye? Not Madrid that's for damn sure!"

Catalans: "No, we like making ourselves into towers. You can't stop us."

Spain: "Stop it at once!"

 

[Anudder Oik]

Today was Spains national day of spanishness, it celebrates the dicovery of america with a miltary parade and lots of jingoistic flag waving. It has always been a date in the calender for anti-fascists because there is always trouble. In the morning in barcelona there was the more moderate gathering (see photo) which was attended by 300,000 people less than the one last week because to bus them all in again from the furthest points of the spanish peninsular would have been too much to ask. There chants were "don't let them fool you, catalonia is spain" and the popular ditty "Puigdemont to jail".

 

[Anudder Oik]

After the turn of the "moderate" spanish nationalists, came the turn of the openly fascist. Two rival groups of ultras, 40 each side, bumped into each other and destroyed the terrace of the famous zurich bar. The 1000 strong anti-fascit march was kept away by police. It was Valencian fascists against fascists from Sabadell. The Valencian ones were those that attacked the progressive march in Valencia this week on the 9th.

Grups d’ultres es barallen entre ells i malmeten el bar Zurich, a la plaça de Catalunya

 

[Anudder Oik]

A list of the organizations on the "respectable" demonstration in the morning: España2000, Espanya i Catalans, PxC, Vox, HazteOír, Convivencia Cívica, Comunión Tradicionalista Carlista, Alternativa Española, Legión Urbana, La Traca, Somatemps, Pueblo y Generación identitaria, PP y Ciutadans.

 

[Anudder Oik]

The unionists in spain are really wound up. Last monday there was an attack on a left wing march in Valencia, today they heckled from the sidelines in Granada but luckily the organizers had security. There are ususlly left wing protests in Spain on the 12th of october to counter the patriotic ones celebrating the discovery of america. On the military parade in madrid today, a group of soldiers paraded past that crappy king fella dressed as what looked like conquistadores, the ones who massacred the indians.

 

[tim]

I'd have thought, perhaps naively, that an independent Catalonia would not face many problems from the EU staying in the EU....? It's leaving the EU that's problematic... Isn't it?

It's leaving any union that's problematic. Secede from Spain and Spain won't let you stay in the EU. Leave the EU and you're fucked.

Not that Leaving Spain is really feasible when the Spanish government holds the purse strings and controls the military.

If you are poor, and you have little to lose, fighting for a rather abstract cause that might lead to the betterment of your condition. The Catalans are not poor and have an awful lot to lose.

 

[camouflage]

The unionists in spain are really wound up. Last monday there was an attack on a left wing march in Valencia, today they heckled from the sidelines in Granada but luckily the organizers had security. There are ususlly left wing protests in Spain on the 12th of october to counter the patriotic ones celebrating the discovery of america. On the military parade in madrid today, a group of soldiers paraded past that crappy king fella dressed as what looked like conquistadores, the ones who massacred the indians.

Imperialism never apologises, only justifies itself and remains proud.