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DotCommunist said:
I'd thought the oppo side had boycotted the election in the main as invalid. Which surely means its less than the full story.
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Yep, I agree. There's probably a thought experiment way of doing the maths that says 90% of the 43% turnout... along with assumptions about how the stolen 700k ballots would have split .... along with the people who couldn't actually get in to vote because of GC ... which adds up to ... gets close to the point where you can say 'we would have got 50%... which overrides the opposition there was to the ballot anyway'. I suspect that, technically/pedantically there's a bit of truth in all that, it was nearly a perfect storm that almost/could have got 50% of the electorate. But much more importantly, that kind of logic isn't the basis for - any fucking where near - national secession.
 
Anudder Oik said:
Be careful with the silent block/majorty narrative. It is a lie peddled by the PP to attack the result of the referendum. A minimum of 25% of the electorate never votes in elections. They abstain because they are not politically engaged and couldn't give a toss. There is therefore no reason to attribute them to being in favor of 155 or against independence. There are around 1,000,000 voters willing to deposit their trust in the spanish right wing parties in Catalonia, a number which can be confirmed easily. Another thing is that when people die, it takes a long time for their names to be removed from the electoral register so numbers of potential voters in the electoral register aren't precise. The fact that the Catalan parliament has a pro independence majority must surely reflect the reality.

I believe, 2,044,038 votes for Independence, plus hundreds of thousands of votes confiscated on the day during a violent onslaught is a win.
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I agree that you can't attribute specific things about indie or article 155, but you are just as guilty in making assumptions about this group (that they aren't politically engaged and couldn't give a toss'). To equate political engagement with voting rather goes against the history of your own region.
 
Anudder Oik said:
Be careful with the silent block/majorty narrative. It is a lie peddled by the PP to attack the result of the referendum. A minimum of 25% of the electorate never votes in elections. They abstain because they are not politically engaged and couldn't give a toss. There is therefore no reason to attribute them to being in favor of 155 or against independence. There are around 1,000,000 voters willing to deposit their trust in the spanish right wing parties in Catalonia, a number which can be confirmed easily. Another thing is that when people die, it takes a long time for their names to be removed from the electoral register so numbers of potential voters in the electoral register aren't precise. The fact that the Catalan parliament has a pro independence majority must surely reflect the reality.

I believe, 2,044,038 votes for Independence, plus hundreds of thousands of votes confiscated on the day during a violent onslaught is a win.
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How can it be a win when it was boycotted by half the fucking population? State of your arguments.......

Everybody gives a shit mate, wake up and smell the cola cao. Maybe just not for politics and debate actively not in their interest or not aimed at them.

The very fact that 34% of the population are totally written off democratically should surely worry you as someone on the left right? I am not even against Catalan independence per se, but the idea that this vote is a clear mandate from a united population is laughable and frankly is getting boring. Obviously the situation is anything but, however.
 
Anudder Oik - to pose this as a direct question to you: do you think there is a majority among the Catalan people in favour of the full independence option? If the answer is no or not sure, how can you proceed to secession? And even if you think the answer is yes, you surely can't take the referendum result as definitive evidence of that?

Edit: and I posing that question as someone who was quite impressed with the way the indie campaign pulled a coalition of voters together to get the 90% of the 43%, (even if I'm not impressed with the cross class/politics that underpinned that strategy, iyswim).
 
Riklet said:
How can it be a win when it was boycotted by half the fucking population? State of your arguments.......

Everybody gives a shit mate, wake up and smell the cola cao. Maybe just not for politics and debate actively not in their interest or not aimed at them.

The very fact that 34% of the population are totally written off democratically should surely worry you as someone on the left right? I am not even against Catalan independence per se, but the idea that this vote is a clear mandate from a united population is laughable and frankly is getting boring. Obviously the situation is anything but, however.
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yes, ao is on the left right, a variable position allowing him great leeway
 
Wilf said:
Anudder Oik - to pose this as a direct question to you: do you think there is a majority among the Catalan people in favour of the full independence option? If the answer is no or not sure, how can you proceed to secession? And even if you think the answer is yes, you surely can't take the referendum result as definitive evidence of that?

Edit: and I posing that question as someone who was quite impressed with the way the indie campaign pulled a coalition of voters together to get the 90% of the 43%, (even if I'm not impressed with the cross class/politics that underpinned that strategy, iyswim).
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tbh you don't need an absolute majority, a vocal minority ought to do the trick. and many people will have been so appalled by the madrid government's antics thus far that a push or two more and the spanish regime will have done barcelona's job for it.
 
Spanish government royally fucking this up then. Apart from their fascism floating to the surface, is there any rational reason why they've taken the route they have? Will it make victory easier for the PP in the next election? It all seems so weirdly miscalculated from where I'm sitting.
 
Theyre just a bunch of corrupt morons creating scandal to distrsct everyone from the massive theft of public money they have engaged in for years. And they're still getting away with it!

.... Bit like the Catalan government too eh.
 
Brainaddict said:
Spanish government royally fucking this up then. Apart from their fascism floating to the surface, is there any rational reason why they've taken the route they have? Will it make victory easier for the PP in the next election? It all seems so weirdly miscalculated from where I'm sitting.
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I'm not sure. They hardly give the impression of having everything in hand, agreed. But if they acted any differently, would that be a tacit recognition that the gov of Catalonia is, to all intents etc, not subject to Spanish administrative law? Would that really be a smart move for them?
 
Celia Canovas of Podem denouncing the abuse going on at the senate in Madrid (PP majority) re the imposition of article 155, aimed at annihilating Catalonia's autonomy.


I am Celia Canovas, I am a senator in Spain. (Podem, catalan Podemos)
I am here speaking from the senate (Madrid) because I have been called like the rest of the senators to a meeting to decide about the application of the 155 law on the 27th.

I want to explain to you that for me this is an authentic act of madness, a real crushing of people’s rights that the PP are promoting with the application, or attempt at application of this article. According to constitutional experts this article was never designed to depose any government body, yet here they are literally kicking out an entire executive body, a government, and here they are removing the functions of a parliament. It is to say, that the article 155 speaks of limitations but on no account does it speak of suppression of sovereign bodies. Therefore, we are totally against the application of this article, but what’s more we are against the handling and the way it is being organized in the senate. It’s a real “Cacicada” (arbitrary action). It is shameful that no amendments are permitted before a commission… created without any democratic guarantee and without the intervention of senators from the autonomies themselves…

We mustn’t forget that today it is to be applied in Catalonia (155) but tomorrow? where else will it be applied? So, I am convinced that the whole of Spain should be on alert to what is happening because the PP party is smashing the territorial model of Spain, the plurinationality. It doesn’t accept it. We cannot accept this, we must fight against this abuse of power
 
Extra catalan police guards (mossos) at the gates to the ciutadella park in Barcelona tonite. It's where the catalan parliament is. Tomorrow we expect the proclamation of the republic. The Mossos will then only recognize the catalan government's authority and this will mean dual power, with the possibility of two opposing police forces facing off.

DNAhHDNWsAIXShZ.jpg
 
Fuck off Pickmans. This is no time for your pedantry.

120 Irish traditional musicians arriving in Catalunya tomorrow - including our 30 from South Armagh (and assuming the free-state poshos don't bottle it) . Just in time for the Proclamation of the Republic.

Viva Catalunya.

No Pasaran etc.
 
LiamO said:
Fuck off Pickmans. This is no time for your pedantry.

120 Irish traditional musicians arriving in Catalunya tomorrow - including our 30 from South Armagh (and assuming the free-state poshos don't bottle it) . Just in time for the Proclamation of the Republic.

Viva Catalunya.

No Pasaran etc.
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Let's hope it ends more peacefully than some proclamations of republics have
 
Brainaddict said:
Spanish government royally fucking this up then. Apart from their fascism floating to the surface, is there any rational reason why they've taken the route they have? Will it make victory easier for the PP in the next election? It all seems so weirdly miscalculated from where I'm sitting.
Click to expand...


PP has got plenty of votes out of its no-compromise position with Spanish right-wing voters over recent years. PP's base is definitely motivated by their current numbskullery. Another supposedly rational reason is that once Catalan nationalism gets its way, the Basques and Galicians will be motivated, and Spain suffers a total break up quicker than you can say Yugoslavia.

There is no way this can be seen as a rational approach to the situation though. It's one-dimensional and merely an attitude rather than even the most basic of strategies. Imagine they win this battle in the coming weeks, it only means they lose the war more decisively in the long run. Most Catalans still didn't want independence a few weeks ago, despite how stupid PP's governance has been, and years of the Generalitat's "Good catalans want independence/bad catalans don't" policies. PP won't get away with this forever though. It might already be too late.
 
Galicians are miles off independence I'd say. Actually, a good prompt for me to go and look at the polls - at a guess 15-20% max in Galicia want out of Spain?

Don't reckon people in Ferrol have a problem with PP, for example.
 
Favelado said:
PP has got plenty of votes out of its no-compromise position with Spanish right-wing voters over recent years. PP's base is definitely motivated by their current numbskullery. Another supposedly rational reason is that once Catalan nationalism gets its way, the Basques and Galicians will be motivated, and Spain suffers a total break up quicker than you can say Yugoslavia.

There is no way this can be seen as a rational approach to the situation though. It's one-dimensional and merely an attitude rather than even the most basic of strategies. Imagine they win this battle in the coming weeks, it only means they lose the war more decisively in the long run. Most Catalans still didn't want independence a few weeks ago, despite how stupid PP's governance has been, and years of the Generalitat's "Good catalans want independence/bad catalans don't" policies. PP won't get away with this forever though. It might already be too late.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you say, the PP represents the bullying "Por mis cojones" way of dealing with things, authoritarian, arrogant and lying scum, and I would add that this week somewhere I saw that Ciutadans had stolen a million voters from the PP as Rivera's party has taken an even harder stance (being accused of falangist style speeches in parliament). The PP have, for years, stoked anti-catalanism to garner votes.

However, I don't see this part as being accurate, at all. years of the Generalitat's
Favelado said:
Good catalans want independence/bad catalans don't" policies.
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Where did you get that?
 
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