Spanish Political News
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Our mob will have to learn that.
Already know 'Torna, Torna Serrelonga'
Up the Rebels!
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
The rhetoric of Catalan politicians when I lived there. "Good Catalans speak Catalan" was something i heard bandied around. Didn't a Barcelona mayor say that some time ago? Newcomers to Catalonia offered free Catalan classes by the Generalitat, but not free Spanish classes despite the fact that immigrants overwhelmingly want the latter. Criticism of those who referred to "Spain" and not "The Spanish state".
On another note, i found Catalan nationalism to be pretty middle class. It would be interesting to see the class breakdown of independence support, and maybe someone on here can point in the right direction.
The most working-class area I can think of in Barcelon is L'Hospitalet de Llobregat. It was strongly anti-independence, whereas funky bohemian Gracia was the opposite. I've got a feeling that there is a class divide that still exists now.
Super-rich - Pro-Spain.
Lower middle class and middle class - Pro-independence
Working class and immigrants from Africa/South America - Pro-Spain.
Age demographics will blur this, but I think that would be broadly true. What are other posters thoughts on this?
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
I lived in Barcelona for two decades, never heard that. What's the problem with them offering free catalan classes?
As for africans and south americans, the ones I know are not interested in the independence process and haven't taken sides. Some south americans support independence as it is something they can relate to as they too became independent from spanish colonialism and celebrate this fact.
I will go further. The majority of people living in areas like Gracia are not even Catalan. I strongly suspect the closer the crunch comes, the more quickly the middle classes will desert the independence cause. I don't like to say this about my friends, but... they haven't really thought it through properly.
The vast majority of working class folk in Catalunya know they are better united with Spain, but with autonomous rule. It suits them just fine for all sorts of very good reasons.
Yeah, that will be why they went to Spain.
The most working-class area I can think of in Belfast is The Shankill. It is strongly anti-Irish Independence, whereas funky bohemian Andersonstown is the opposite.
I have a feeling the 'divide' is not so-class based
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Favelado
J'adore South Shore
I think my source for that was from a book many guiris read when they arrive called "Ghosts of Spain" as well as later confirmation in my own life, admittedly not in the street, but from pro-independence politicians in parliament on local news. The author of the book was a Times journalist, and the chapter on Catalonia not entirely balanced, but the quote is verifiable.
Free Catalan classes are great, but the lack of free Spanish classes seemed mean, especially considering the fact it's what people wanted.
"Newcomers to West Belfast offered free Irish classes by the Sinners, but not free English classes despite the fact that immigrants overwhelmingly want the latter. Criticism of those who referred to "Northern Ireland" and not "The north of Ireland".
Why can't these colonials just learn and speak english, like the rest of the world. What is the point of Irsh, Catalan, Polish, Vietnamese, etc when the rest of the world speaks english, spanish or chinese anyway?
And why do you think they 'wanted' to learn Spanish? Anything to do with generations of the suppression of the Catalan tongue, do you think?
You didn't ask me, but I guess it was because they had migrated to Spain.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
I don't really find the two cases to be the same. Britain's colonialism not the same as a union between Aragon and Castille. Absolutely not supporting Francoist repression in Catalonia during the dictatorship of course. All of Spain suffered repression, but the added layer of cultural repression imposed in Catalonia disgusting.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
They want to learn a language that means they can communicate with everyone in Spain, and not just a minority of people. Catalans can speak Spanish too, in the vast majority of cases. Pragmatism rather than politics.
Shoulda gone to fuckin Spain then
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
They did. Ask the majority of Catalans.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
And... Puigdemont has just dissolved the Catalan parliament and called for elections.
He has sold out the catalan cause. People over 80 years of age taking a beating on the 1st of october only for their representative in parliament to throw everything away.
Here is a tweet from Rufian, a particulary eloquent member of the catalan parliament. It says; 155 pieces of silver
He has sold out the catalan cause. People over 80 years of age taking a beating on the 1st of october only for their representative in parliament to throw everything away.
Here is a tweet from Rufian, a particulary eloquent member of the catalan parliament. It says; 155 pieces of silver
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
what did you expect him to do?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
curiously, if memory serves, the spanish american colonies were castilian and not aragonese.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it would have done the same for many people of a sterner disposition.It was probably the threat of LiamO arriving with his tambourine what pushed him over the edge.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
If the nationalists get a majority of votes in an election, they have a mandate, don't they? More legitimacy than declaring independence on the basis of a flawed referendum.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I haven't seen any reporting of this other than your post, so I'm only guessing at his logic. Anyway, yes, I take your point, at the very least it's wildly inconsistent to supposedly be at the point of UDI only to then revert back to an election. But that goes back to the problem of the referendum itself - that it was boycotted and ended up with a low turnout (even if it did also get an impressive pro-independence vote). So yes, this is a step back and it's utterly inconsistent with his previous line, essentially that the catalan people have spoken and that's it, UDI. But given that Madrid were never going to allow UDI, is this not the only real step he could take?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
being as he's a very bourgeois nationalist it's no real surprise.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Jeremiah18.17
Well-Known Member
It is a game of tactics- a war of manoeuvre- the Spanish state demanded elections (on their terms) Puigdemont has said the elections will be on the Catalan indepentistas terms - what will the Spanish state do now?
Jeremiah18.17
Well-Known Member
Rajoy wanted elections in the new year after they had seized control of Catalan media and institutions and police. Presumably Puigdemont wants any seizures or interventions to be seen as attacks on democracy during an immediate election period and to use a possible election victory (that Rajoy will find it hard to dismiss, having called for an election) to claim democratic legitimacy with outside forces such as the EU and the most sympathetic forces within it. If Rajoy says an immediate Catalan election is illegitimate he exposes his intention of a rigged election and we are also back in the situation witnessed globally during the referendum - a loyalist boycott and police intervention. A lot of table turning going on in this conflict.
Jeremiah18.17
Well-Known Member
So, no snap election and no UDI....hmmm
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Puigdemont has changed his mind again about three hours ago, now saying the elections are off and that the parliament will decide on whether to claim the republic or not,tomorrow. Everyone here is open mouthed and on tenterhooks.
They are debating it live now in the catalan parliament.
It would appear that the PP government are determined to destroy Catalonia's autonomy whatever, elections or not. This is now turning into a fight for democracy against evil intentions.
Whatever happens, there are many indications that the ultra nature of the state will prompt it to begin an operation of attack against liberties. We need to unite.
They are debating it live now in the catalan parliament.
It would appear that the PP government are determined to destroy Catalonia's autonomy whatever, elections or not. This is now turning into a fight for democracy against evil intentions.
Whatever happens, there are many indications that the ultra nature of the state will prompt it to begin an operation of attack against liberties. We need to unite.
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