Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no, it's not a right of passage it's a rite of passage
unless you think british people have the right to get smacked about by spanish cops.
Spanish Political News
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unless you think british people have the right to get smacked about by spanish cops.DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
our faces are as good as anyone elses
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
presumably there would be a regent appopinted. Can't have Quenn 10 year old coming up with decrees like ponies mandatory on every street corner and abolishing vegetables
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
corrected for you
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Riklet
procrastinación
Call me a pessimist, but the republican stuff is just mainly the left talking to the left. I saw photos of a demo here but I couldn't go, although I will do if there's one on saturday.
I don't think there is a huge level of support or interest though, tbh. will you save my scepticism for this harking after the second republic and the idea getting rid of the monarchy would really change much in Spain 2014 without well... lots of other stuff happening.
I don't think there is a huge level of support or interest though, tbh. will you save my scepticism for this harking after the second republic and the idea getting rid of the monarchy would really change much in Spain 2014 without well... lots of other stuff happening.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
What do people make of the spat between IU and Podemos?
Juan Carlos Monedero, former advisor to Chavez and now leading member of Podemos, accuses parts of the IU of becoming part of the Spanish political class (or as Podemos brilliantly put it, political caste - a term which imo should catch on here) partly because they are in coalition with the PSOE in Andalucia.
Whereas Cayo Lara of the IU makes a variety of accusations here. Accusations include the allegation that Podemos are putting forward a Front National-esque programme that is 'beyond left and right', something which two seconds looking at the Podemos manifesto would disprove.
What I do think that Cayo Lara argues, which is totally right, is that Podemos are able to appeal to people who are not traditional IU voters, particularly younger graduates. This says that Podemos won the very student heavy Oviedo in Asturias, for example.
Juan Carlos Monedero, former advisor to Chavez and now leading member of Podemos, accuses parts of the IU of becoming part of the Spanish political class (or as Podemos brilliantly put it, political caste - a term which imo should catch on here) partly because they are in coalition with the PSOE in Andalucia.
Whereas Cayo Lara of the IU makes a variety of accusations here. Accusations include the allegation that Podemos are putting forward a Front National-esque programme that is 'beyond left and right', something which two seconds looking at the Podemos manifesto would disprove.
What I do think that Cayo Lara argues, which is totally right, is that Podemos are able to appeal to people who are not traditional IU voters, particularly younger graduates. This says that Podemos won the very student heavy Oviedo in Asturias, for example.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Podemos's manifesto is unmistakeably left as you say. I don't see any sign of the accusation being true at present. I reckon Podemos are mopping up an absolute tonne of votes from exactly the people who were sat in Sol a couple of years ago. Non-trade union member, pissed off young people who grew up with the transition done and dusted and have got progressively more pissed off with a life-time of corruption scandals, topped off with the post-crash Spain's hopelessness for their generation. They have seen Iglesias on La Sexta, seen someone who is pretty much like them, and have thrown their lot in with him instead of the relatively stuffy-looking IU.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You are probably right. However, moments of succession are always dodgy for monarchies, even constitutional ones.
Most of us don't remember one here, Elizabeth Windsor's been around so long, but there were fears for the monarchy here in the 1930s too. When EW pops her clogs, there will be some wobbles. The popularity of monarchies is not a deeply held one. The British queen is personally popular for some reason I don't quite get, and that makes it seem like it's the monarchy itself that's popular. But that can change very quickly.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
These protests are laying a marker down for the coming years as well. Juan Carlos is up to his neck in filthy business deals. He is about to lose his immunity from prosecution post-abdication. The Spanish public might be pretty fucking furious in a scenario where the truth about JC's dealings with foreign firms starts to emerge. The anger will not be contained to him but Felipe as well.
The game is on, as J Ed said. It's well worth making a row now, even if the result isn't guaranteed. A republic really could happen here.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
News reports on the BBC World Service have been uncritically talking of Juan Ca as the man who brought democracy to Spain. Their royalist stripes showing through.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
Man in a suit is replaced by a man in a suit. Old aristocracy is replaced by new aristocracy....
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It makes all sorts of other things possible. The current man in a suit represents a very particular section in Spanish society - that's why he's still there, the person of the monarch is a part of the compromise between the two Spains following Franco's death. Getting rid of the monarchy opens space to renegotiate that compromise.
Corax
Luke 5:16
I know embarrassingly little about Spain, so this is a genuine question: what would the differences be if that happened?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
A top down state led transition - of course, this will be suit for suit (you said this was great earlier and that the corrupt king should get backslaps for his role it). This stuff going on now puts another way of doing things on the table and opens up and helps other connections be made. Whether the aim of a monarchy booed off stage by popular acclaim happens or not.
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Favelado
J'adore South Shore
That's my street that is.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's years since I looked at this, but I have read the Spanish constitution. It was drawn up as a compromise between the Francoists and everyone else. One of the sops to the Francoists was the continuation of Spain as a monarchy. Not everyone at the negotiating table agreed with this by any means, particularly as JuanCa was Franco's man, but they held their noses in order to produce a result.
A republic would need a new constitution. It would require those interests to sit around the table again and renegotiate. But this time they would not be renegotiating under the shadow of Francisco Franco's recently deceased regime. No guarantees, but a new space opened up in which things could be possible.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What compromise? What two spains? The compromise/the transition was a top-down foot on the neck of the class and political dissenters deal between the elites with no popular participation whatsoever. It's ok, we're not on the BBC, we don't need to buy that sort of guff or talk as if we do.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Great, the politicians who sold the spanish people to the EU get around a table and decide how to run spain.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not quite. You can't really call PSOE of the time part of the elite, given that they were a clandestine organisation just a few years earlier.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
All other parties were clandestine a few years earlier. It's not some mark of the especial PSOE bravery or militancy. Rather, the states policy towards parties.
You can say that they wanted in on the elite and were prepared to help the existing elite in its democratic transition. And lo, look what happened. But other than that, you don't disagree?
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
There is a range of possibilities from something very similar to the status quo, i.e. a similar constitution with a figurehead president, to the prospect of something much more radical. Someone urgently has to address the issue of centralism versus regionalism in Spain - it is very likely that a republic would mean referenda in Catalonia and the Basque Country,possible cessations, and a more federal Spain in whatever geographical form it took after that. Also, PSOE's lickspittle support for a transition to a new king is partly born of fear of a more revolutionary mood which sees their arses battered by proper left-wing parties should a republic happen. Podemos and IU's policies give you an indication of what such a country might look like.
Conservatism's best friend may come in falling unemployment and an improving economy, but these defining issues of centralism and regionalism and corruption can only be fixed by systemic change. 2% GDP growth per annum can't deal with them, and that's maybe why the republic is always going to be in with a fighting chance of becoming reality.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
What strength of opposition do you think there is to any of that happening, Favelado? How strong is there a feeling of One Spain Indivisible among younger Spaniards? The PP still gets lots of votes...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
With the benefit of hindsight, you can say that, yes.
Although I'm sure Gonzalez and others would say that they felt there was no peaceful choice but to allow the existing elite to maintain a position in the new Spain. Franco, on his deathbed, thought he had everything 'all tied up' to continue his regime after him. Suarez and others decided differently - what was the correct response to him? I don't know. Blow up Carrero Blanco - yes, fucking well done. But once Franco had gone, and one of his ministers wants to talk? There were fears of another civil war.
There was a time in Spain, in the 80s, before they joined NATO, when the left had some purchase. I think at that time, many people would have said that Felipe had done well to get to that situation.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
That's still an attitude you'll find in the majority of the capital and much of the country- The thing is though, the more the right says a parental, "NO YOU CAN'T" to Catalonia, the more it makes a split inevitable in the long term. They can stick their fingers in their ears if they like but someone is going to have to deal with it sooner or later. The constitution isn't quite fit for purpose anymore. PP are pretty much guaranteed to do as little as they can to change it. This leaves a real window of opportunity for someone with vision and leadership. PP and PSOE are run by people who would be overwhelmed if they have to run a branch of Santander - that vision and leadership will have to come from elsewhere.
The abdication is said by some to be part of a plan in which Felipe and the govt. reaches out to Catalonia with some concessions, therefore allowing everyone to live happily ever after. It seems a little quixotic, but at least it's the right peninsula for that adjective. The king's lawyer, Miquel Roca, seems to be a Mandelsonian behind-the-scenes figure key to all this. I need to do so more reading up on him, but I've been told that he is somehow going to be a player in succession strategy.
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