Should There Be A Tier 5 Or Another Third National Lockdown?

[Puddy_Tat]

It's, essentially, what they're doing here in Wales - I was stopped at one during the previous lockdown (sort of Novemberish) and asked where I was going and for what purpose.

as i've said on another thread, i did get stopped by police (or at least pcso) in berkshire while i was driving to work in the first lockdown (had letter from employer saying i was considered essential worker)

the snag with the regional tiers thing was made very clear the weekend before xmas when there was a huge rush to leave tier 4 london before the deadline and pile on to overcrowded trains



i guess it's not practical to come up with a ruling where everyone has to stay indeifinitely where they are at the moment the decision is announced, but there's got to be better ways of doing it...

 

[existentialist]

I didn't see weltweit's post originally, but reading it in your post...er, yes, well. China . Of course we're not going to get away with a paramilitary lockdown like that.

I'm not sure, honestly. I known the virus needs to be got under control, but the thought of several months, in the winter, of everything being shut down and not seeing anyone in person is really fucking depressing.

There's not a lot of point trying to discuss that on here because a few of you seem to not just think a really strict lockdown is regrettably necessary but to be gleeful about it. We all know how this thread is going to go already, so what's the point?

I wonder if you may be interpreting a desperate keenness to get this problem under control with "gleeful". I am very much for lockdowns, etc., as the only way to manage this situation (as evidenced by some profound differences in case rates in different countries). But I am also aware that, like you, I am suffering as a result of it. The last person I (legally) saw face-to-face was the Border Force operator at Portsmouth on 23rd December (I - illegally - dived into a Tesco in Portsmouth when I realised I wasn't even going to be allowed to go out to shop for essentials under quarantine). That is beginning to have a profound effect on my anxiety and, weirdly, motivation levels - if I were assessing me for someone else, I'd be expressing "moderate concern".

It is miserable, and I know, bad as it is for me, it's even worse for other people. But my biggest concern is the idea that I might infect others. I'm, I slowly realise, as someone approaching his 60s with not the best life prospects ahead of him, less fussed about catching it myself, provided it doesn't do a half-arsed job - but the idea that, by not adopting behaviours that reduce or eliminate the risk of my having it and transmitting it unknowingly, is unthinkable to me. I'll take the mental health hit rather than have to deal with that.

At the moment, those behaviours have to include isolation/lockdown. I can't see any other way.

 

[klang]

Send in the clowns

It is a little disconcerting to read the posts here from people demanding that our increasingly repressive government repress us more. Either you folks are super masochistic or are paid troll collaborators.

 

[existentialist]

as i've said on another thread, i did get stopped by police (or at least pcso) in berkshire while i was driving to work in the first lockdown (had letter from employer saying i was considered essential worker)

the snag with the regional tiers thing was made very clear the weekend before xmas when there was a huge rush to leave tier 4 london before the deadline and pile on to overcrowded trains



i guess it's not practical to come up with a ruling where everyone has to stay indeifinitely where they are at the moment the decision is announced, but there's got to be better ways of doing it...

The French "attestation" system seemed to me a step in the right direction. You could move around for certain reasons, but you have to state what those reasons are on a form you fill in and then carry around with you. Apparently, if you declare something "on your honour" on a French form, and then break that word, there's a maximum €45,000 fine, and/or a 3 year prison term

 

[LDC]

I'm not sure, honestly. I known the virus needs to be got under control, but the thought of several months, in the winter, of everything being shut down and not seeing anyone in person is really fucking depressing.

There's not a lot of point trying to discuss that on here because a few of you seem to not just think a really strict lockdown is regrettably necessary but to be gleeful about it.

Yes, of course it's depressing and horrible. Pandemics where tens of thousands of people die tend to be. I'm not gleeful about any measures, and I haven't seen anyone else seem happy about it, but I can't see any other way to reduce deaths and other massive problems resulting from mass infection rates. If you have other ideas go ahead and share them.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Either you folks are super masochistic or are paid troll collaborators.

It’s an easy job, well paid, and thus means I can pay for expensive “specialist” equipment without too much of an impact on my day to day finances.

 

[BigMoaner]

It is a little disconcerting to read the posts here from people demanding that our increasingly repressive government repress us more. Either you folks are super masochistic or are paid troll collaborators.

i don't particularly want to anarchy my way onto a ventilator, thanks. I have things like my kids and my frail folks to think of.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Are you not salaried status yet?

Still have to do timesheets in my day job, I became an anarchist because I occasionally don't do it until the third passive aggressive email

 

[LDC]

i don't particularly want to anarchy my way onto a ventilator, thanks. I have things like my kids and my frail folks to think of.

"Anarchy-ing my way onto a ventilator."

"Forward to ICU comrades!"

"If I can't be ventilated it's not my revolution!"

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I'm not sure, honestly. I known the virus needs to be got under control, but the thought of several months, in the winter, of everything being shut down and not seeing anyone in person is really fucking depressing.

There's not a lot of point trying to discuss that on here because a few of you seem to not just think a really strict lockdown is regrettably necessary but to be gleeful about it.

Yes, it’s depressing. It will be utterly miserable.

But what’s the alternative?

 

[Edie]

Since I’ve been and still am so ill- struggling to breathe and fighting this terrible fever, I would not wish this on my worst enemy. I would say you must all do whatever you can to avoid getting it, cos if you get it bad it’s a terrible thing. Stay at home, be really fucking cautious, and get vaccinated as quickly as you can. Fucking horrible plague

 

[LDC]

Since I’ve been and still am so ill- struggling to breathe and fighting this terrible fever, I would not wish this on my worst enemy. I would say you must all do whatever you can to avoid getting it, cos if you get it bad it’s a terrible thing. Stay at home, be really fucking cautious, and get vaccinated as quickly as you can. Fucking horrible plague

Shit, I didn't know you had it Edie - hope you get better soon. From work you think?

 

[Edie]

Shit, I didn't know you had it Edie - hope you get better soon. From work you think?

Yes I had a patient week before last with it. Full symptoms on the ‘do you think you’ve had it’ thread. It’s not been pretty I’ve been really ill.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I think there is probably a keystone cops joke in here somewhere

 

[StoneRoad]

The overall health of the population - as in not getting covid / new variant - demands another, very strict lockdown.
Throw money at the economy and it will recover, but dead people can't be ...

I'm not "gleeful" about this, it is an unfortunate necessity, I consider the strictness required is because of two things - the infectiousness / potential severity of the plague and secondly because some people will not follow the gentler, voluntary guidelines that the tiers used. For the latter point, witness the rush to get out of London and the parking at PenYFan just a few days ago ...

That ideal Lockdown comes with 'stay at home' and 'essential food / medicine trips only (prebooked ?)' 'work on-line : exceptions being a very limited list of keyworkers' and 'proper compensation for closed businesses and their workers'plus 'schools / unis go on-line - with extra support for those that need it'

Now there is a glimmer of hope, since the Oxford / AstraZeneca jab has been certified, that lockdown will be until enough people have been vaccinated (and have proper proof of that) and the case rate drops to as low as it's going to go and the pressure on the NHS has been greatly reduced.

Personally, I'm still staying at home and WFH (99% of work communications are phone or email).
As a household, we're getting 99% of stuff delivered and only one person out of the four adults is going out ( we've gone back to my OH doing the milk n bread run)
That's not changing until the waiting period after the second dose for the youngest person (me) expires. [unless they go for all first jabs and wait for nearly 12 weeks to do the second ones]

 

[scifisam]

Yes, of course it's depressing and horrible. Pandemics where tens of thousands of people die tend to be. I'm not gleeful about any measures, and I haven't seen anyone else seem happy about it, but I can't see any other way to reduce deaths and other massive problems resulting from mass infection rates. If you have other ideas go ahead and share them.

It's the speed with which some people, you included occasionally, jump to "lock everything away!" that comes across as gleeful. Not actually jumping for joy, but a grim satisfaction, like extreme schadenfreude. I don't know you, of course, and in real life in sure we'd be able to discuss this more reasonably - except of course we can't

But no fucking way in the world am I sharing any thoughts or ideas on here. You've got to be kidding. If I suggest keeping anything at all open I'll be accused of literally killing people's grannies.

 

[editor]

It is a little disconcerting to read the posts here from people demanding that our increasingly repressive government repress us more. Either you folks are super masochistic or are paid troll collaborators.

So what do you suggest?

 

[editor]

That comes with 'stay at home' and 'essential food / medicine trips only (prebooked ?)' 'work on-line : exceptions being a very limited list of keyworkers' and 'proper compensation for closed businesses and their workers' 'schools / unis go on-line'

'Stay at home' is a great mantra if people live in a harmonious household with loads of space and a garden, but there's plenty of equally compelling health reasons why some people need to get out of the house for something other than shopping.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

It's the speed with which some people, you included occasionally, jump to "lock everything away!" that comes across as gleeful. Not actually jumping for joy, but a grim satisfaction, like extreme schadenfreude. I don't know you, of course, and in real life in sure we'd be able to discuss this more reasonably - except of course we can't

But no fucking way in the world am I sharing any thoughts or ideas on here. You've got to be kidding. If I suggest keeping anything at all open I'll be accused of literally killing people's grannies.

Can only speak for myself here, but I’m anything but gleeful about it. Merely stating what I see as a cold, hard, fact. We tried keeping things open. It didn’t work. We tried giving people some leeway, letting them act sensibly. It didn’t work. So, what’s left? Lock everything down. Have a clear, simple, unambiguous situation that applies to everyone.

 

[LDC]

It's the speed with which some people, you included occasionally, jump to "lock everything away!" that comes across as gleeful. Not actually jumping for joy, but a grim satisfaction, like extreme schadenfreude. I don't know you, of course, and in real life in sure we'd be able to discuss this more reasonably - except of course we can't

But no fucking way in the world am I sharing any thoughts or ideas on here. You've got to be kidding. If I suggest keeping anything at all open I'll be accused of literally killing people's grannies.

Outside the initial lockdown I've generally agreed with keeping schools open. That's only recently changed for me in the current circumstances. But yes, non-essential retail and hospitality, totally right it should be shut down when the infection rates and then deaths are high.

TBH if you're not willing to share what you think should be kept open and what alternatives there are to closing lots down then it's a bit hard to have a conversation about the risks and benefits to other options!

 

[killer b]

It's the speed with which some people, you included occasionally, jump to "lock everything away!" that comes across as gleeful. Not actually jumping for joy, but a grim satisfaction, like extreme schadenfreude. I don't know you, of course, and in real life in sure we'd be able to discuss this more reasonably - except of course we can't

But no fucking way in the world am I sharing any thoughts or ideas on here. You've got to be kidding. If I suggest keeping anything at all open I'll be accused of literally killing people's grannies.

I think it's just that the 'hard lockdown now!' crew are finally, indisputably right, so they're taking a moment to revel in it. But they've mostly been saying the same thing since September, so it's more a stopped clock being right twice a day situation than anything else.

 

[LDC]

If I suggest keeping anything at all open I'll be accused of literally killing people's grannies.

The thing is, and of course I know that's a flippant comment of yours, but keeping some things open will literally result in what you joke about.

So the decision is what is worth it? Being able to go to the shops for food and other essentials, meet someone outside for a chat and walk, kids to go to school I can all see as something that on balance we have to continue with. But someone being able to go to the cinema or a crowded pub...?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I think it's just that the 'hard lockdown now!' crew are finally, indisputably right, so they're taking a moment to revel in it. But they've mostly been saying the same thing since September, so it's more a stopped clock being right twice a day situation than anything else.

Us all being where we are now kinda suggests “they” were right in September, no?

The shitshow currently happening is a direct result of decisions taken months ago.

 

[scifisam]

The thing is, and of course I know that's a flippant comment of yours, but keeping some things open will literally result in what you joke about.

So the decision is what is worth it? Being able to go to the shops for food and other essentials, meet someone outside for a chat and walk, kids to go to school I can all see as something that on balance we have to continue with. But someone being able to go to the cinema or a crowded pub...?

Except I didn't say anything about a cinema or crowded pub, did I? This is why it's not worth discussing. I haven't even said what I thought would be better kept open and you've already leapt to the most extreme end and I'm already a granny killer.

Though if it had been me suggesting keeping schools open a certain couple of other people would have leapt straight onto that.

 

[LDC]

Except I didn't say anything about a cinema or crowded pub, did I? This is why it's not worth discussing. I haven't even said what I thought would be better kept open and you've already leapt to the most extreme end and I'm already a granny killer.

Though if it had been me suggesting keeping schools open a certain couple of other people would have leapt straight onto that.

I was giving a general example of what I have heard people have been moaning is shut. You have said you won't say what you think. Honestly you're being a bit ridiculous, if you won't discuss it then leave the thread.

 

[scifisam]

I was giving a general example of what I have heard people have been moaning is shut. You have said you won't say what you think. Honestly you're being a bit ridiculous, if you won't discuss it then leave the thread.

I've said why I won't, though. There's no point. When I say keeping anything open your mind immediately goes to what hardly anyone is actually suggesting right now.

"Leave the thread." I was going to but that makes me want to stick around.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Shutting down non-essential retail is all very well, but it's not going to do fuck all if they insist on keeping schools open. Nice as most kids are, they are the fastest plague spreaders (through no fault of their own) and primary kids in particular won't remember to social distance. Kind of defeats the purpose.

 

[killer b]

Us all being where we are now kinda suggests “they” were right in September, no?

Only if you assume the only two options are 'what we've got' and 'full lockdown now.'

Even the shoddy tier system we have had some impact on infections, which were coming down in the North as we entered the November lockdown.

If those interventions had been better timed, better funded, better targeted? We would be in a much better position now.

 

[The39thStep]

I've said why I won't, though. There's no point. When I say keeping anything open your mind immediately goes to what hardly anyone is actually suggesting right now.

"Leave the thread." I was going to but that makes me want to stick around.

Stick around, fair play to you for saying how you feel.

 

[LDC]

I've said why I won't, though. There's no point. When I say keeping anything open your mind immediately goes to what hardly anyone is actually suggesting right now.

"Leave the thread." I was going to but that makes me want to stick around.

"I think some things should stay open, but I won't say what in case someone disagrees." Brilliant.