Should the Covid vaccine be mandatory?

[gentlegreen]

Voltairian.

Voltaire on Vaccination

Voltaire tells anti-vaxxers to suck it, in 1733

www.exilesbazaar.com

"I’d like to think that Voltaire would be shocked to learn that the merits of vaccination remain up for debate, or rather are up for debate once again, nearly three centuries after he wrote extolling the practice."

The thing is in this sort of context I think Pascal may actually have the better argument.

 

[8ball]

...also a bit insulting to plenty of NHS and social care workers.

Whereas when talking about people who don't work for the NHS, insulting anti-vaxxers (or "vaccine hesitant" etc.) is very popular on here.
It's a curious state of affairs when those with the capacity to do much greater damage with their decisions are the ones given the pass.

 

[gosub]

Voltaire on Vaccination

Voltaire tells anti-vaxxers to suck it, in 1733

www.exilesbazaar.com

"I’d like to think that Voltaire would be shocked to learn that the merits of vaccination remain up for debate, or rather are up for debate once again, nearly three centuries after he wrote extolling the practice."

I like to think Voltaire would be more depressed about whats happened "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" . Might have found Gulf War Syndrome a bit of an eye opener too.

 

[gentlegreen]

Whereas when talking about people who don't work for the NHS, insulting anti-vaxxers (or "vaccine hesitant" etc.) is very popular on here.
It's a curious state of affairs when those with the capacity to do much greater damage with their decisions are the ones given the pass.

In my case I feel genuine sorrow for the simply misled, but disgust for those spreading misinformation.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

If these people don't have health reasons preventing them getting jabbed then what's fucking stopping them?! In most cases getting jabbed is a piece of piss surely.

 

[gentlegreen]

I like to think Voltaire would be more depressed about whats happened "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" . Might have found Gulf War Syndrome a bit of an eye opener too.

"Gulf War Syndrome" is an extreme example - given the massive amount of stuff the soldiers were exposed to.
All we're asking in this case is that people take the massively safer option of getting the most refined vaccinations ever devised versus the high probability and risk of contracting (and more effectively spreading) a disease that's running rampant across the whole planet.

 

[LDC]

If these people don't have health reasons preventing them getting jabbed then what's fucking stopping them?! In most cases getting jabbed is a piece of piss surely.

Is that a serious question?! The reasons have been discussed endlessly on here!

 

[gosub]

"Gulf War Syndrome" is an extreme example - given the massive amount of stuff the soldiers were exposed to.
All we're asking in this case is that people take the massively safer option of getting the most refined vaccinations ever devised versus the high probability and risk of contracting (and more effectively spreading) a disease that's running rampant across the whole planet.

Flip side you are also talking about vaccines developed in the most incredble rush in recent medical history, with a lot of the regulatory stuff being done in series. In addition I would have thought "the most refined vaccinations ever devised" would better describe what is in the pipeline now.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

But he is right, those protests happened and MSM played it down. Personally wasn't aware of them til day after (though wouldn't have promoted or attended due to situation) But I will acknowledge they happened.

Well 'our terribly significant protests weren't reported by the MSM' is definitely something shared with the left. They're generally not reported because they're not as significant as the participants like to imagine not because of some conspiracy though aren't they.

 

[gosub]

Well 'our terribly significant protests weren't reported by the MSM' is definitely something shared with the left. They're generally not reported because they're not as significant as the participants like to imagine not because of some conspiracy though aren't they.

Where am I missing it? That Jan21 was n't in Portests nor refered to this thread.

 

[gentlegreen]

Flip side you are also talking about vaccines developed in the most incredble rush in recent medical history, with a lot of the regulatory stuff being done in series. In addition I would have thought "the most refined vaccinations ever devised" would better describe what is in the pipeline now.

Are you serious ?
I confess that the speed surprised even virologists I respect, but there were proprietary secrets involved, but the technology was mature. The safety checks were not skipped.
The efficacy testing was easy because there was a raging pandemic and the vaccines were so effective, the control groups were immediately offered them.

 

[gosub]

Are you serious ?
I confess that the speed surprised even virologists I respect, but there were proprietary secrets involved, but the technology was mature. The safety checks were not skipped.
The efficacy testing was easy because there was a raging pandemic and the vaccines were so effective, the control groups were immediately offered them.

Yeah I am serioius. (it was an awesome job). As I said was down to doing things in parrellel rather than series. But you are still going to have knock ons over bad reactions with the bastards that are the insurance companies down the line. Meanwhile by next autumn most likely be a different shot they will be advising people to take. Or least I hope so . This thing's got 46 points of varience and evolves like a motherfucker.

 

[mojo pixy]

I've worked in both mojo pixy I know exactly what you are talking about. However it's not a race to the bottom of a shitshow. You could I'm sure work for the NHS if you wanted. Hard to say that with a straight face as a better option. I would be bitter in your position and honestly NHS staff are bitter too after the last 2 years. .. solidarity at least in words x

Not bitter, I'm angry, and a bit sad. I think this situation is emblematic of so much else these days, it's a triumph for fear and selfishness, for personal preference over social responsibility. And the shameless opportunism of the U-turn, the obvious lack of any principle whatsoever underpinning this set of contradictory decisions. But mainly, it's just another few grains in the "we're fucked" pile .. which for me seems to greatly outweigh the "it'll all be ok" pile.

 

[gentlegreen]

Yeah I am serioius. (it was an awesome job). As I said was down to doing things in parrellel rather than series. But you are still going to have knock ons over bad reactions with the bastards that are the insurance companies down the line. Meanwhile by next autumn most likely be a different shot they will be advising people to take. Or least I hope so . This thing's got 46 points of varience and evolves like a motherfucker.

You might want to listen to some proper scientists.

Spoiler: youtube videos

 

[gosub]

You might want to listen to some proper scientists.

Will do on Saturday. Wales v Ireland down the pub .
Meanwhile, busy week. not going to get bogged down on here over this. (i'll give them a watch b4 then.)

 

[gentlegreen]

Will do on Saturday. Wales v Ireland down the pub .
Meanwhile, busy week. not going to get bogged down on here over this. (i'll give them a watch b4 then.)

If I get little else from the likes of TWIV, it is that the scientists have our backs and are eager to spot new angles so bad papers get picked up.

 

[l'Otters]

Flip side you are also talking about vaccines developed in the most incredble rush in recent medical history, with a lot of the regulatory stuff being done in series. In addition I would have thought "the most refined vaccinations ever devised" would better describe what is in the pipeline now.

If they’re still in the pipeline stage they haven’t got to the end of being devised yet tho

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Is that a serious question?! The reasons have been discussed endlessly on here!

Not everyone has all day to read pages and pages of a thread. I have shit to do.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Where it’s for healthcare staff with patient facing roles. Have the following been tried yet?

• q&a on the vaccines offered (within paid work hours)

My trust has been running loads of these. No idea how well attended they’ve been, or if they’ve shifted people’s views.

 

[oryx]

One thing I wonder is how much NHS trusts are open to legal action, if it can be proved that someone caught Covid in hospital and was being treated by an unvaccinated member of staff.

I can see that this would be quite hard to prove, but not impossible.

 

[elbows]

One thing I wonder is how much NHS trusts are open to legal action, if it can be proved that someone caught Covid in hospital and was being treated by an unvaccinated member of staff.

I can see that this would be quite hard to prove, but not impossible.

We'll probably see some non-vaccine-specific versions of that stuff play out in relation to some of the past hospital-acquired covid infection incidents. There are many thousands of those to choose from so I shall keep an eye on this, as it could offer clues about the future where vaccination status can be added to the mix.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Flip side you are also talking about vaccines developed in the most incredble rush in recent medical history

Arrrrrgh.

We Had the Vaccine the Whole Time

The silver bullet we’ve been waiting for took all of one weekend to design.

nymag.com

 

[elbows]

The professional responsibility issue isnt going away for health workers, nor should it in my opinion.

 

[nogojones]

If these people don't have health reasons preventing them getting jabbed then what's fucking stopping them?! In most cases getting jabbed is a piece of piss surely.

Mistrust of authority would be the main reason I guess.

 

[Sasaferrato]

One thing I wonder is how much NHS trusts are open to legal action, if it can be proved that someone caught Covid in hospital and was being treated by an unvaccinated member of staff.

I can see that this would be quite hard to prove, but not impossible.

You have to prove negligence by an individual. This is why the NHS is not bankrupted by hospital acquired wound infections.

 

[elbows]

There was a Telegraph article about that in November:

Patients could sue if they catch Covid from unvaccinated NHS staff

archived 11 Nov 2021 08:14:41 UTC

archive.ph

Daniel Sokol, a clinical negligence barrister and expert in medical ethics, said hospitals that allowed unvaccinated staff to deliver care could be pursued for breaching a duty to take reasonable care of their patients.

The NHS has previously been sued for negligence over the spread of other infections including MRSA and C-difficile, though establishing the nature of the failure has proved difficult.

Mr Sokol said cases involving Covid could be more clear-cut given that patients coming in for planned surgery are expected to undergo tests before admission and the jab status of staff is recorded.

Earlier this week, The Telegraph revealed that more than 11,000 people have caught Covid and died after being admitted to NHS hospitals for other ailments.

 

[andysays]

There was a Telegraph article about that in November:

Patients could sue if they catch Covid from unvaccinated NHS staff

archived 11 Nov 2021 08:14:41 UTC

archive.ph

Even if it can be demonstrated that a patient caught Covid from an unvaccinated member of staff (which I doubt frankly; all that could be proved is that they were in contact with an unvaccinated member of staff), any legal case would still come up against the obstacle that vaccination doesn't prevent anyone from catching or passing it on.

 

[LDC]

Even if it can be demonstrated that a patient caught Covid from an unvaccinated member of staff (which I doubt frankly; all that could be proved is that they were in contact with an unvaccinated member of staff), any legal case would still come up against the obstacle that vaccination doesn't prevent anyone from catching or passing it on.

But Trusts often settle prior to the cases getting to court, so even though it might not win there, imagine a Trust dealing with a load of complaints that might go to court. It's a hufe time and moral consuming issue for the NHS dealing with that anyway. I met a lawyer once who's area of work was medical malpractice, and he said it's rare they ever get there.

 

[IC3D]

Mandatory vaccination was universally unpopular amoungst all staff in my experience. Effacy and consent prime reasons cited.
The fact that patients are in beds unmasked should be more of a red flag than the staff in PPE anyway in terms of infection.

 

[LDC]

Sticking it here, but there's a few places it could go. A piece from Hard Crackers on having a movement to defeat the anti/hesitant vaccine one.

A Matter of Life and Death: Winning the Fight for Vaccines

It seems increasingly likely that a real end to the COVID pandemic will require all but universal vaccination.[1] There are three challenges that need to be met: The development of much more effective strategies to work with those individuals who continue to hesitate about getting vaccinated...

hardcrackers.com