Should the Covid vaccine be mandatory?

[littlebabyjesus]

The analogy with seatbelts works better if you talk about a parent's duty to ensure their kids are strapped in. Duty of care stuff.

This is where I struggle with the various interviews in the press with unvaccinated nurses or care workers who say that they care about their patients. If you care about your patients, get the jab.

 

[weltweit]

If you are sitting in the front of a car not wearing a seatbelt you mostly increase the likelyhood of serious injury to yourself. But if you are in the back you also increase the risk of serious injury to those sitting in front of you.

If you are not vaccinated you increase the risk of serious illness to yourself, and you may risk more passing it to others compared to being vaccinated.

Quite similar in fact.

 

[l'Otters]

Who actually "wants" that?

Yeah, exactly, no one.

Be quite convenient for those who’d like to see the back of the nhs.

 

[l'Otters]

Vaccines should not be mandatory, they are not effective enough yet. Why should we have to have an injection that doesn't stop you from getting ill or stop you from passing it on? How this virus affects folk seems to be quite varied, I had the 1st 2. I'm not bothering with the booster. I'd rather just avoid people for the rest of my life tbh.
If I had children I'm really not sure if I would want them being vaccinated until it has been totally proven that there won't be after effects.

1. It greatly reduces how ill you will get and it greatly reduces transmission.

2. The main reason you’d still get ill is down to global vaccine inequality meaning vast reserves of unprotected people which incubates new variants.

3. Sounds like you definitely should just avoid people tbh.

4. Take a look at what the after effects for kids actually getting covid are.

5. Covid vaccines for kids have been checked out and approved in most countries which have access to enough stock to have a decent vaccination programme. Uk is the outlier here.

6. You don’t have kids anyway so what’s your point?

 

[xenon]

No I'm not. That's the tricky bit. Its an analogy. I know woosh right. There is no car or seatbelt.

Dunno what you're on about TBH.

Here's another analegy though. Would you support train drivers who refuse mediscreening for drugs or alcohol? Cos you know, it's personal liberty?

Yeah but the vaccines don't prevent etc... Not everyone high or with alcohol in their system causes accidents either.

 

[kalidarkone]

We are being asked to upload our proof of vaccination. I work under secondment to the NHS and we have been told all CQC services have to have

Here in Germany you don't get into any indoor venue (restaurants, clothing stores, cinemas, etc) apart from the most essential stores (food, pharmacies) if you haven't been fully vaccinated and boostered (or tested within 24 hours instead of a 3rd vaccination). We all have to carry digital vaccination passports + ID with us. On top of that, for work I have to test myself 2 times a week and send the result to HR. If all if that can be done here, I don't see how staff couldn't be checked at hospitals.

You are quite right in theory and the above is just conjecture on my part, based on the daily constant administrative fuck ups and ridiculous, no sense bureaucracy based on I don't know what...not logic it seems.

Also currently very few covid safety measures in England are in practice from what I can see and nothing is enforced any longer.

I will report back on how measures for unvaccinated staff are enforced. If they are.

 

[xenon]

Vaccines should not be mandatory, they are not effective enough yet. Why should we have to have an injection that doesn't stop you from getting ill or stop you from passing it on? How this virus affects folk seems to be quite varied, I had the 1st 2. I'm not bothering with the booster. I'd rather just avoid people for the rest of my life tbh.
If I had children I'm really not sure if I would want them being vaccinated until it has been totally proven that there won't be after effects.

l'Ottters has dealt with your other points but you had any vaccines for anything at all? Would you be surprised to know they haven't been totally proven to have no side effects either?

 

[IC3D]

Germans would march into Poland if you asked them Reno

 

[IC3D]

l'Otters the vaccine is like an imaginary seatbelt.

 

[Reno]

Germans would march into Poland if you asked them Reno

Two things Germans would not do in the 21st century is to sabotage themselves with something like Brexit (which made me, a German immigrant, finally turn my back on the UK after 33 years) or to make their country a laughing stock by electing a fucking clown like Boris Johnson. So I can't blame the likes of you for still droning on about WWII, like winning that was the last notable British achievement.

 

[kalidarkone]

The analogy with seatbelts works better if you talk about a parent's duty to ensure their kids are strapped in. Duty of care stuff.

This is where I struggle with the various interviews in the press with unvaccinated nurses or care workers who say that they care about their patients. If you care about your patients, get the jab.

I care about my patients, but care about myself more. That's why I got vaccinated.

 

[BristolEcho]

You are quite right in theory and the above is just conjecture on my part, based on the daily constant administrative fuck ups and ridiculous, no sense bureaucracy based on I don't know what...not logic it seems.

Also currently very few covid safety measures in England are in practice from what I can see and nothing is enforced any longer.

I will report back on how measures for unvaccinated staff are enforced. If they are.

I'm not really sure it's going to go ahead as it is considering staffing is already at crisis point and was long before this even started. Possibly we'll see an extension and then it'll go quiet.

Thought it was interesting that Admin staff even if they are back office also have to get it as they can be deployed anywhere.

Take up is pretty good in my team from what I can tell.

 

[BristolEcho]

Vaccines should not be mandatory, they are not effective enough yet. Why should we have to have an injection that doesn't stop you from getting ill or stop you from passing it on? How this virus affects folk seems to be quite varied, I had the 1st 2. I'm not bothering with the booster. I'd rather just avoid people for the rest of my life tbh.
If I had children I'm really not sure if I would want them being vaccinated until it has been totally proven that there won't be after effects.

All of this has been answered 1000's of times. It's fine if you don't want it, but stop with the stuff about it not stopping you getting Ill, or from passing it on as that was never the point.

 

[IC3D]

Protests, riots and the highest recorded infection rate to date. Horst Wessel Lied. Reno

 

[geminisnake]

I was under the impression this was a discussion forum, I didn't realise we were all meant to have the same opinions, excuse me for not reading 16 pages before commenting cos no other fucker has ever done that eh?

So if the vaccine doesn't stop you from getting ill, wtf is the point? I have had vaccines, they maybe have stopped me from getting some illnesses. I was under the impression that was the point of them.

Btw l'otter I do have 'bairns' but they are adults now and all the vaccinations they got had been around a fuckton of time before they were given them

 

[rekil]

IC3D Why not fuck off back to the drugs forum? You loon cunt.

 

[Sue]

Germans would march into Poland if you asked them Reno

That's really out of order, IC3D.

 

[Sue]

Protests, riots and the highest recorded infection rate to date. Horst Wessel Lied. Reno

This is also really out of order. Reported.

 

[IC3D]

Thought the last post was but fair enough. Just Germans following rules etc.. sorry.

 

[Reno]

Protests, riots and the highest recorded infection rate to date. Horst Wessel Lied. Reno

Quoting this, so it can't be deleted. Had to put up with this type of shit for over 3 decades of living in the UK.

 

[Sue]

Thought the last post was but fair enough. Just Germans following rules etc.. sorry.

Sorry to whom and about what exactly because this ^ is shit too.

 

[pbsmooth]

I was under the impression this was a discussion forum, I didn't realise we were all meant to have the same opinions, excuse me for not reading 16 pages before commenting cos no other fucker has ever done that eh?

So if the vaccine doesn't stop you from getting ill, wtf is the point? I have had vaccines, they maybe have stopped me from getting some illnesses. I was under the impression that was the point of them.

Btw l'otter I do have 'bairns' but they are adults now and all the vaccinations they got had been around a fuckton of time before they were given them

The vaccine reduces the chance of you catching it, spreading it and getting seriously ill. It's not that hard.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The vaccine reduces the chance of you catching it, spreading it and getting seriously ill. It's not that hard.

And because it only reduces the chance rather than eliminating it, the vaccination status of other people matters. If the vaccines were 100%, the vaccinated could largely stop worrying about the unvaccinated.

 

[editor]

Germans would march into Poland if you asked them Reno

Any more of this shit and you'll be banned for 48 hours.

 

[BigTom]

I was under the impression this was a discussion forum, I didn't realise we were all meant to have the same opinions, excuse me for not reading 16 pages before commenting cos no other fucker has ever done that eh?

So if the vaccine doesn't stop you from getting ill, wtf is the point? I have had vaccines, they maybe have stopped me from getting some illnesses. I was under the impression that was the point of them.

Btw l'otter I do have 'bairns' but they are adults now and all the vaccinations they got had been around a fuckton of time before they were given them

Just to put some actual numbers on it:

Further analysis by the agency has concluded that unvaccinated adults are as much as eight times more likely to be admitted to hospital than those who have been vaccinated and that booster doses are 88% effective at preventing hospital admission.4

A separate report published by the UKHSA showed that, although unvaccinated individuals made up only a small proportion of the overall population, they accounted for 27% of those with a confirmed case of omicron admitted to hospital in England and for 39% in London.5

The Office for National Statistics’ latest report on deaths from covid-19 covering the period from January to October last year in England found that the age adjusted rate of death was 96% lower in people who had received a second dose of vaccine than in those who were unvaccinated.6

Covid-19: Fact check—how many patients in hospital are unvaccinated?

Published Jan 2022. references are all in the article

The deaths relates to delta rather than omicron, but still that's a 96% reduction in chance of death from that variant and you can be confident it also increases your chances of survival with omicron as a result, especially when you look at the hopsitalisation figures for omicron. 11% of the population account for 27% of hospital cases, you are much less likely to be hospitalised with omicron if you are vaccinated.

In terms of catching it at all, latest data from the US says you are 5 times more likely to catch it if you are unvaccinated, and having the booster reduces your chances to catch it over having had one or two doses (and two better than one as well). Unvaccinated 5X more likely to get omicron than those boosted, CDC reports

In the month of December, as cases of the ultra-transmissible omicron variant skyrocketed, unvaccinated people were nearly three times more likely to report a case of COVID-19 than people fully vaccinated. Compared with fully vaccinated and boosted people, the unvaccinated were five times more likely to report a case.
...

So yeah, it's not 100% but it does reduce your chances of catching it, being hospitalised or dying if you do get it - and by quite a lot.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And if anyone wants to see what the spread of the delta variant in an undervaccinated population looked like, you can check out the covid (and excess) death figures for places like Romania, Ukraine or Bulgaria over the last six months.

The argument over whether or not the vaccines save lives is long over. As for them being new and untested. Well they're still fairly new, but they're now far from untested. Around 10 billion jabs between them and counting. That's one fuck of a large-scale study.

 

[elbows]

Vaccination should not be mandatory. And that’s how I voted on this thread poll too. Going back to elbow’s first post on this thread in October of last year, vaccination does not stop someone contracting the virus & passing it on. As far as I’m aware, nowt has changed regarding that.

That post of mine was rather brief and too binary and came at a time when we were discussing mandatory vaccination for the whole adult population, not just health workers.

I went on to describe that the vaccines still had some effect on infection and transmission in a subsequent post. #91

Since then, Omicron has further eroded parts of that picture, and the public debate doesnt tend to dwell on all these details enough. But I still want health care workers to get vaccinated, for me its mostly a question of timing and the degree of punitive measures employed. The current deadline being so close means that I dont think the benefits of sticking with that outweigh the downsides.

Plus due to differences in approach between England and Wales, we currently have stories like this one:

Covid: Wales could recruit non-jabbed English NHS staff

Covid vaccines are not compulsory for NHS staff in Wales but are being mandated in England.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[elbows]

And because it only reduces the chance rather than eliminating it, the vaccination status of other people matters. If the vaccines were 100%, the vaccinated could largely stop worrying about the unvaccinated.

Yes this is basically a consequence of the original 'herd immunity' thing the authorities tried to use as justification for letting it rip not actually being seen as a plausible outcome these days. But it hasnt been discussed enough in the media etc, and some people still use the term as shorthand for something else that doesnt actually feature the genuine herd immunity effect. The vaccine wall is somewhat porous so we cannot rely on a large percentage of the population being vaccinated to eliminate high levels of viral prevalence. Thus the unvaccinated cannot benefit from immunity levels in the herd in the way that the full-blown concept of herd immunity requires.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It feels a bit of a case of barn doors and horses bolting tbh. The really urgent time for all health and care workers to be vaccinated was a year ago. It's not such a pressing case now, and although I still don't see any excuse other than a medical exemption for anyone not to be vaccinated, I'm not comfortable with compulsion for the sake of it.

It does feel like some people haven't been living in the same universe as me for the last two years when I hear arguments to do with personal choice and freedom, though. Don't you remember when we were all locked away for months on end?

 

[IC3D]

No mandate in Scotland too. I know people resigning and arranging employment in Wales. Not hard to do.