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Petition to request parliament review LTNs

ianarmstrong said:
Sadiq Khan keeps saying TFL have no money and has to go to the government for a bailout every year so they should curtail some of their plans to spend money and stick to running public transport and keeping the traffic moving on the roads they are responsible for.
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Right I see. So Transport for London should stop spending money on transport in London and but also they should extend bus services though.
 
ianarmstrong said:
All of the charge points outside of the home could apply some VED type charge and the government would need to figure out how to account for home charge points in a similar way - there will always be people who try to avoid paying tax and there will be ways of detecting them such as cable running from the home to the car parked in the road - you will never stop everyone trying to evade tax but I'd say it would be better to go down that route than require ANPR cameras to be installed all over the UK
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So you would rather pay for loads of people to go around checking people's driveways and presumably having right of entry to a home to check garages, and still lose tax money to fraud, than to have anpr cameras?

What about black box gps inside cars?
 
ianarmstrong said:
I'd question the remit of TFL on that

We have smart meters so I'm sure they can develop smart EV charge meters that tell the supplier how much electricity has been used for an EV/hybrid connected vehicle and add an EV fuel duty cost to the bill the consumer pays - that would be much easier than installing ANPR cameras everywhere across the UK
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Are you an electrical engineer or anything like that?
Do you fancy showing us how a smart meter can tell if an EV, a kettle, a heater, an oven or something else is plugged in and drawing power please.
Because as far as I know, that's not technically possible. I'm not an expert though, so of course I would not say I'm sure about that, and I'm happy to be shown otherwise. Since you are sure, could you share your professional expertise and background in this area please.

At the moment the way I see it is we have three options:
1) ANPR cameras - proven, existing, working technology, which is already in place in many of the places that would need it, and already have at least some of the background systems in place to run it.
2) GPS black box units in cars - proven, existing technology, which has been trialled but not in use anywhere nor with the background systems up and running at all
3) Additional charge for EV powering - effectively already done at commercial charge points which have 20% VAT rather than 5% VAT domestic fuel charge. Not shown to be technically possible to do for home charging, not done or trialled anywhere as far as I know.
 
MickiQ said:
All the houses on my estate that have electric cars charge them in their driveways, with the sole exception of the guy with the white Golf who drapes an extension lead out of his kitchen window, they all have EV charge points.
My electric smart meter has a built in sim that it uses to tell its masters about my electric and gas usage (gas meter talks to the electric via wifi). You could put a similar one in every EV car point that also sends back usage information but why? Why should someone pay more money for the kwh that ends up in their car rather than their washing machine (or weed grow for that matter) doesn't cost any more to generate.
And if for some reason they did it's dead easy to beat just hang the extension lead out of the window or get an outside socket. I've got a double socket on the outside of the garage wall which I use for Mrs Q's fountains, the mower and the Foreman grill, I could easily put one on the front and charge an electric car (if I had one) in the drive. You can't put a meter in every socket and you can't tell what sort of device is using the current.

As for LTN's I don't live in London so not a big issue to me if Londoners are getting hot under the collar about sitting longer in traffic, it's your own fault for living there. The estate I live on has no through roads, the two entrances to it are on the same main road half a mile apart. Any traffic on the estate is either residents, deliveries or visitors. It's very nice like that I can see the point of trying to make it a bit more like that in bigger cities. What's wrong with a car journey taking a bit longer? you're sat there in comfort, listening to your own choice of music. Seems worth it for not having to dodge traffic outside your front door in a residential area.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with teuchter what is the world coming to?
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Costs the same to generate, costs more to society to use. Car use has huge externalities which are paid for via direct taxes on car usage:

Road building and maintenance - really you should pay more based on the size and weight of your car, and with road pricing, this can be factored in.
Policing - there's a lot of road specific policing and almost all of it goes into policing drivers
Collisions - often involve the fire service and sometimes courts, coroner if there's a fatality, plus costs counted elsewhere like police/ambulance attendance or any maintenance required at the crash site.
NHS - dealing with the outcome of collisions, the public health issue of air pollution (EVs still produce NOx and particulate pollution) and the costs of inactivity related diseases.

There's probably some other things too.
None of these apply to other uses of electricity, and to the extent they have negative externalities that we need to cover through tax, they will likely have had VAT applied to them at sale, and there's the 5% VAT on all electricity anyway.

But cars have huge negative externalities that go beyond climate change, and should rightly be covered by drivers.
 
MickiQ said:
Why should someone pay more money for the kwh that ends up in their car rather than their washing machine (or weed grow for that matter) doesn't cost any more to generate.
Click to expand...
My washing machine doesn't give people cancer, my microwave doesn't violently kill over a million a year and my rechargable vibrator does not demand the world be tarmacked over for its pleasure.
 
MickiQ said:
All the houses on my estate that have electric cars charge them in their driveways, with the sole exception of the guy with the white Golf who drapes an extension lead out of his kitchen window, they all have EV charge points.
My electric smart meter has a built in sim that it uses to tell its masters about my electric and gas usage (gas meter talks to the electric via wifi). You could put a similar one in every EV car point that also sends back usage information but why? Why should someone pay more money for the kwh that ends up in their car rather than their washing machine (or weed grow for that matter) doesn't cost any more to generate.
And if for some reason they did it's dead easy to beat just hang the extension lead out of the window or get an outside socket. I've got a double socket on the outside of the garage wall which I use for Mrs Q's fountains, the mower and the Foreman grill, I could easily put one on the front and charge an electric car (if I had one) in the drive. You can't put a meter in every socket and you can't tell what sort of device is using the current.

As for LTN's I don't live in London so not a big issue to me if Londoners are getting hot under the collar about sitting longer in traffic, it's your own fault for living there. The estate I live on has no through roads, the two entrances to it are on the same main road half a mile apart. Any traffic on the estate is either residents, deliveries or visitors. It's very nice like that I can see the point of trying to make it a bit more like that in bigger cities. What's wrong with a car journey taking a bit longer? you're sat there in comfort, listening to your own choice of music. Seems worth it for not having to dodge traffic outside your front door in a residential area.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with teuchter what is the world coming to?
Click to expand...
liquidindian said:
I'm not sure some sort of inspector coming round your house to see what you've got plugged in would go down well with sort of people who are signing this petition, Ian.
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Road pricing has been ruled out by the government is seems but the committee looking in to this is considering what I have suggested


What alternatives to road pricing has the TSC considered?

Recovering lost revenue in general taxation is one idea, but the TSC said this would be unfair to non-drivers. Pricing electricity used for charging an EV differently from that used for the home is another, but doing so would require costly infrastructure. The TSC said that whatever solution is adopted must not discourage active travel (walking and cycling), which the government is committed to increasing or encourage vehicle use and consequently congestion, which it has pledged to reduce.


www.autocar.co.uk

Government has no plans to introduce road pricing for UK drivers | Autocar

Transport Select Committee estimates charging EVs VED will recoup less than 5% of revenue lost from fuel tax
www.autocar.co.uk www.autocar.co.uk
 
BigTom said:
Costs the same to generate, costs more to society to use. Car use has huge externalities which are paid for via direct taxes on car usage:

Road building and maintenance - really you should pay more based on the size and weight of your car, and with road pricing, this can be factored in.
Policing - there's a lot of road specific policing and almost all of it goes into policing drivers
Collisions - often involve the fire service and sometimes courts, coroner if there's a fatality, plus costs counted elsewhere like police/ambulance attendance or any maintenance required at the crash site.
NHS - dealing with the outcome of collisions, the public health issue of air pollution (EVs still produce NOx and particulate pollution) and the costs of inactivity related diseases.

There's probably some other things too.
None of these apply to other uses of electricity, and to the extent they have negative externalities that we need to cover through tax, they will likely have had VAT applied to them at sale, and there's the 5% VAT on all electricity anyway.

But cars have huge negative externalities that go beyond climate change, and should rightly be covered by drivers.
Click to expand...
Lots of negatives but where are the positives of motoring industry and motor vehicle usage in your list?
 
maomao said:
My washing machine doesn't give people cancer, my microwave doesn't violently kill over a million a year and my rechargable vibrator does not demand the world be tarmacked over for its pleasure.
Click to expand...
Funnily enough my car hasn't made any of those demands either.
 
BigTom said:
Are you an electrical engineer or anything like that?
Do you fancy showing us how a smart meter can tell if an EV, a kettle, a heater, an oven or something else is plugged in and drawing power please.
Because as far as I know, that's not technically possible. I'm not an expert though, so of course I would not say I'm sure about that, and I'm happy to be shown otherwise. Since you are sure, could you share your professional expertise and background in this area please.

At the moment the way I see it is we have three options:
1) ANPR cameras - proven, existing, working technology, which is already in place in many of the places that would need it, and already have at least some of the background systems in place to run it.
2) GPS black box units in cars - proven, existing technology, which has been trialled but not in use anywhere nor with the background systems up and running at all
3) Additional charge for EV powering - effectively already done at commercial charge points which have 20% VAT rather than 5% VAT domestic fuel charge. Not shown to be technically possible to do for home charging, not done or trialled anywhere as far as I know.
Click to expand...
The government
klang said:
go on, what are the positives about the motoring industry and driving in London?
Click to expand...

Independence, Freedom and safety for people who may be isolated if they did not have a car to help get around or be vulnerable in various ways
Most products and food items are delivered to shops using motor vehicles
More and more products are delivered to peoples homes using motor vehicles as the phenonium of internet shopping has exploded
A large number of people are employed by the motor industry
A large number of people earn their living using a motor vehicle
The government receive significant tax revenues from people employed in the motor industry or earning a living using a motor vehicle
Local government generate revenue in various ways from motor vehicles
Economic activity is fuelled by people using motor vehicles for all sorts of journeys
The motor industry is a leader in technology advancements and many help the UK economy
People use their motor vehicles for leisure activities or to visit family and friends which benefits themselves, their families, friends and the businesses they travel to for those leisure activities
lots more

The pros and cons should always be considered in order to balance out these debates
 
klang said:
Oh, and we really don't need a balanced debate on the pros and cons of the motoring industry. We need to find a very radical approach to saving the planet. We are running on borrowed time.
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Who is “we” here? Because the future of the climate isn’t going to be influenced by anything anyone says on this thread.
 
Ah back to we aren't big enough to make a difference again.

Famously no nation copies or influences another and portrayals of what an affluent western lifestyle equals have no impact at all on the consumer habits of foreigners and dint influence what foreign governments promise their citizen's.
 
Artaxerxes said:
Ah back to we aren't big enough to make a difference again.

Famously no nation copies or influences another and portrayals of what an affluent western lifestyle equals have no impact at all on the consumer habits of foreigners and dint influence what foreign governments promise their citizen's.
Click to expand...

More unicorn farts are on order…
 
ianarmstrong said:
The government


Independence, Freedom and safety for people who may be isolated if they did not have a car to help get around or be vulnerable in various ways
Most products and food items are delivered to shops using motor vehicles
More and more products are delivered to peoples homes using motor vehicles as the phenonium of internet shopping has exploded
A large number of people are employed by the motor industry
A large number of people earn their living using a motor vehicle
The government receive significant tax revenues from people employed in the motor industry or earning a living using a motor vehicle
Local government generate revenue in various ways from motor vehicles
Economic activity is fuelled by people using motor vehicles for all sorts of journeys
The motor industry is a leader in technology advancements and many help the UK economy
People use their motor vehicles for leisure activities or to visit family and friends which benefits themselves, their families, friends and the businesses they travel to for those leisure activities
lots more

The pros and cons should always be considered in order to balance out these debates
Click to expand...
You really need to do some reading around post-hoc rationalisation.
 
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