The Khan review on smoking

[maomao]

No, obviously not...but the same arguments, discussing parenting abilities and safeguarding were flying around.especially an insistence that children of addicts were almost inevitably destined to follow the same life paths. How about other health choices, such as sugar, poor nutrition leading to obesity? Uncontrolled access to screens? There are many public health interventions I applaud...and the overall picture is always more complicated (such as where do we remove these children to - wards of the state? ) Look, I honestly see where you are coming from, as a parent, but I absolutely question your belief that this requires some sort of punitive state intervention....but mostly, I think, what got my back up was the control over tenants in social housing which would not/could not apply to privately owned households.

I'll admit that there's a tendency by me, and on the boards in general, to discuss things in terms of ideal world solutions that the current state would be incapable of implementing effectively but at the same time we don't call for the legalisation of rape and murder because the current legal system doesn't deal with those things effectively.

I also think smokers in general (not just you) are often guilty of downplaying the genuine dangers of smoking and stressing the right to individual choice over the rights of others to a smoke-free environment.

There shouldn't be any smoking in a house with children. Smokers should go outside for a fag.

What about an adult social tenant in shared accommodation? Should they just have to put up with smoking and its associated health risks so as not to affect another tenant's right to smoke?

 

[Serge Forward]

I'll admit that there's a tendency by me, and on the boards in general, to discuss things in terms of ideal world solutions that the current state would be incapable of implementing effectively but at the same time we don't call for the legalisation of rape and murder because the current legal system doesn't deal with those things effectively.

I also think smokers in general (not just you) are often guilty of downplaying the genuine dangers of smoking and stressing the right to individual choice over the rights of others to a smoke-free environment.


What about an adult social tenant in shared accommodation? Should they just have to put up with smoking and its associated health risks so as not to affect another tenant's right to smoke?

If another adult tenant objects to it, then the smoker should go outside. Surely, it's a consent issue.

 

[maomao]

If another adult tenant objects to it, then the smoker should go outside. Surely, it's a consent issue.

How do you ensure that the 'consent' is free of coercion? If you had just moved into a shared house would you be comfortable objecting to the behaviour of a tenant or tenants that were already there?

 

[Serge Forward]

How do you ensure that the 'consent' is free of coercion? If you had just moved into a shared house would you be comfortable objecting to the behaviour of a tenant or tenants that were already there?

Yep.

 

[maomao]

Yep.

Well done you then. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be very uncomfortable with that.

 

[Sasaferrato]

There shouldn't be any smoking in a house with children. Smokers should go outside for a fag.

Both Mrs Sas and me smoked. All of our parents smoked. My daughter smoked. We are all non smokers now.

 

[Serge Forward]

Well done you then. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be very uncomfortable with that.

Should smokers be responsible for their co-tenants' lack of assertiveness then?

 

[maomao]

Should smokers be responsible for their co-tenants' lack of assertiveness then?

That's a pretty shit thing to say. There are a lot of reasons why people might not be assertive enough to deal with that sort of situation. I'm a big lad and I'd probably think twice about making a fuss if I was on my uppers and ended up in a house full of smokers.

I mean, I understand you're just having a laugh and not taking it seriously but it's likely to be the poorest and weakest in society that have this problem.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Both Mrs Sas and me smoked. All of our parents smoked. My daughter smoked. We are all non smokers now.

As a child in the 60s and 70s, I was surrounded by smokers. My parents, grandparents aunts and uncles. They all puffed away constantly in the house.

No wonder I, and my siblings started smoking as teenagers. It was the norm in those days.

I packed it in 20 years ago and hardly anyone in my circle smokes now, thank god.

 

[JimW]

Old folk round the village here pick up their kids and yours whilst smoking, long way off even the current behaviour standards back home. I finally managed to give up when I learned MrsW was expecting, though had always smoked outside anyway previously.

 

[maomao]

Old folk round the village here pick up their kids and yours whilst smoking, long way off even the current behaviour standards back home.

I saw a bloke with a new-born baby in one arm and a fag in the other hand in the beer garden of a pub two weeks ago. I commented on it to my friend who thought it was no biggie and said he'd done the same so I suppose it depends.what circles you move in. Lovely bloke and our daughters are very close but I don't let her go round his (their daughter is always welcome at ours) cause of the smoking.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Old folk round the village here pick up their kids and yours whilst smoking, long way off even the current behaviour standards back home. I finally managed to give up when I learned MrsW was expecting, though had always smoked outside anyway previously.

I did leave relief in Hong Kong for a month, everybody seemed to be a smoker. That was 1987.

 

[Serge Forward]

That's a pretty shit thing to say. There are a lot of reasons why people might not be assertive enough to deal with that sort of situation. I'm a big lad and I'd probably think twice about making a fuss if I was on my uppers and ended up in a house full of smokers.

I mean, I understand you're just having a laugh and not taking it seriously but it's likely to be the poorest and weakest in society that have this problem.

Maybe it is, but christ, will anything satisfy you here? I've said already that smokers shouldn't smoke indoors if there are kids and non consenting adults in the home. Then you move the goalposts by saying what if some adults don't feel confident enough about actually challenging a smoker in their shared home. I mean, what the flipping flip can I do about that???

 

[maomao]

I mean, what the flipping flip can I do about that???

Agree that bans on smoking in shared accomodation, public and private, are for the benefit of non-smokers and not some sort of attack on poor hard-done-by smokers exercising their freedom of choice.

 

[Dogsauce]

I always find it a bit weird seeing young people smoking, like it’s already something that belongs to a previous age, some strange anachronism. It seems quite prevalent in places like Spain, went to a few gigs there not many years back and loads of puffing teenagers/early 20s.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, I am not really much of a banner of anything, tbh. In theory, it often sounds good...but in practice, I think we all need to take a wee step back from demanding state control of individual behaviours and attitudes And I am struggling to see why smoking at home has such a deleterious affect on non-smokers...apart from not liking some smell (if you saw the decor I inherited from a previous tenant!!!...and obvious pet infestation) I gotta say, I fucking loathe cats but would never, in a million years, consider any sort of ban (even though I am pretty certain I could quote public health anxieties around toxoplasmosis and cat shit) but hey, I am vastly uncomfortable with the whole ban this, ban that sort of thing.

Basically this. I don't want to give the state more power over people's private lives without a damn good reason. I don't see a damn good reason here, especially as there has been a massive societal change in attitudes towards smoking. For example, smoking in the home in front of the kids is now considered a no-no by most people where a couple of generations ago it was pretty normal. I don't doubt that it will be even less acceptable in ten years' time whether or not there is a ban.

And the idea that this would be specifically targetted at social housing stinks. Same kind of issues as with other nominally 'progressive' measures like minimum alcohol pricing, which in reality are massively regressive.

I understand maomao's point about coercion. We don't live in a perfect world, but asking for the state to micromanage relationships to this level makes the world even less perfect. There are lots of things I don't like and wish people didn't do, but that doesn't necessarily mean I want those things banned. I don't want to live in Singapore.

 

[campanula]

When I do smoke, I am pretty considerate to not do it in front of people like my grand-daughter or immuno-suppressed D-i-L, even in my (social)housing. Because I have a fucking decent sense of responsibility and empathy. But then again, I am more than keen on legalisation of drugs too, so this probably makes me a real wrong'un.