Petition to request parliament review LTNs

[liquidindian]

campaigning for the rights of people with a disability?

Leafleting for the tories counts as campaigning against, I'd say.

 

[klang]

Yes better PT and more incentives for individuals and businesses and community organisation to switch to emissions free travel options and cargo/passenger bikes/e-bikes/etc

where's your campaign for that then? seems a rather more pressing issue than a few side streets being out of bounds for a few petrol heads.

 

[klang]

Leafleting for the tories counts as campaigning against, I'd say.

fuck I missed that bit.

 

[ianarmstrong]

out of interest - away from car issues - what's your history in campaigning for the rights of people with a disability? fwiw - I've been working in advocacy and inclusion for people with disabilities for over 2 decades....transport is a very big part of my work.
what's your history? or are you just using vulnerable people as your pawns whenever it suits your agenda?

It would be nice if you could try not to insult me when want to have a conversation about something serious - imagine if we were stood face to face having this conversation - I'm sure you wouldn't be so offensive in that scenario - think about that before you type such nasty hateful words - I've not been insulting to you in my responses

I've never campaigned for anything in my life but generally support initiatives that improve people lives whether they are disabled or not but I saw lots of issues being caused by closing off side streets and it seemed a dumb thing to be doing when people and businesses were trying to recover from a national crisis to be restricting movement and then I spotted lots of manipulation of the process by the authorities and that is why I support this petition for a review by a higher body than the local authorities.

 

[klang]

I'm sure you wouldn't be so offensive in that scenario

you haven't seen me being offensive

think about that before you type such nasty hateful words

i do

I've not been insulting to you in my responses

yes you are. incredibly so.

 

[ianarmstrong]

I am none of these things. I'll never understand this idea that walking and cycling are only for the superfit, and I should get a car rather than get a wee bit puggled because I walked up a hill.

I used to walk and cycle everywhere but as I get older my knees are no longer working as well as they used to - I can walk about as I did yesterday when I went to the office and caught a bus then a tube but every step is often a painful step and standing for too long causes more pain so I try not for walk or stand for too long - I still play squash a couple of times a week but at a much reduced level than what I did when I was younger and more able

 

[klang]

that is why I support this petition for a review by a higher body than the local authorities.

you are wasting your time for an unworthy cause

 

[ianarmstrong]

where's your campaign for that then? seems a rather more pressing issue than a few side streets being out of bounds for a few petrol heads.

I've posted a bunch of suggestions on this thread and I've sent them to many local councillors and the MP as suggestions to implement instead of dumb 24/7 LTNs - I don't agree with your assessment of LTNs equating to a few side streets and the vast majority of drivers are not petrol heads and they are just normal people trying to do a days work or trying to live their lives as best they can in a legal and law abiding manner

 

[ianarmstrong]

you haven't seen me being offensive

i do

yes you are. incredibly so.

Show me an example

 

[Artaxerxes]

When teleportation arrives then cars will be needed no more but until then they will remain as many people cannot walk that far or at all and cycling is not something everyone can do - it's fine if you are young fit and healthy

 

[klang]

Show me an example

i find you advocating 20mph outside a nursery incredibly offensive.
also using people with disabilities as pawns.

 

[klang]

I've posted a bunch of suggestions on this thread and I've sent them to many local councillors and the MP as suggestions to implement instead of dumb 24/7 LTNs - I don't agree with your assessment of LTNs equating to a few side streets and the vast majority of drivers are not petrol heads and they are just normal people trying to do a days work or trying to live their lives as best they can in a legal and law abiding manner

lol @ drivers of cars not being petrol heads

 

[klang]

almost like saying that being a tory doesn't equate being a cunt

 

[liquidindian]

just normal people trying to do a days work or trying to live their lives as best they can in a legal and law abiding manner

More than half of cars break the speed limit on 30mph roads.
When possible, 90% of cars break the speed limit on 20mph roads.

 

[ianarmstrong]

i find you advocating 20mph outside a nursery incredibly offensive.
also using people with disabilities as pawns.

That's not me insulting you that's you finding something I said offensive but you are ignoring the fact that I support school streets for schools and nurseries which no doubt you would not find offensive. I am not using people with disabilities as pawns so you have miss-represented me.

 

[ash]

One thing I find interesting/ annoying/ hilarious depending on my mood is my weekly supermarket delivery. I start chatting with the driver amicably and without fail they move onto LTN’s (I live in a well documented one) ask what I think, ignore my view and then start slagging them off. The funniest one was “ how much do all the signs cost- they could employ more nurses with that money”. (You would like that one ianarmstrong as I know you like signs). Ignore the fact that councils don’t employ nurses maybe we would need less nurses if we had less pollution. Also do they not consider that I may be getting a delivery as I don’t choose to have a car. “ less signs more nurses”
I also had a black cab refuse to take me as I am in an LTN and they have cameras. I complained to TFL and they said his attitude would be considered when his license was up for renewal.

 

[klang]

lol I've noticed the 'signage is too expensive' line. sets my loon-dar off big time.

 

[klang]

the price of this sign could pay for a nurse looking after a toddler with pollution-related asthma who'd just been ran over outside their nursery by a car going 20mph

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I know nurses don't exactly get paid the big bucks but even allowing for that I'm pretty sure they cost more than a sign or two.

 

[maomao]

The real problem is too many carrots and not enough sticks if you ask me. Drivers are constantly being asked to see the benefits when what they need is their negatives said out loud and given as a reason for restricting them.

 

[maomao]

I know nurses don't exactly get paid the big bucks but even allowing for that I'm pretty sure they cost more than a sign or two.

O shoosh. I'm sure retraining council sign engineers as nurses takes a couple of weeks and costs about fifty quid.

 

[Crispy]

I somewhat agree with the idea that LTNs are a blunt instrument. They're all stick, no carrot. It's all well and good forcing people out of their cars and onto bikes, and I can speak from much experience that it is much more pleasant to cycle in LTN areas than it used to be, but as soon as you reach a boundary road you're still fucked. Compare and contrast a Rotterdam suburb, Pendrecht, to the Tulse Hill LTN (from Brixton Water Lane to Christchurch Road, between Tulse Hill and Brixton Hill). Both are about the same size (1km²) and are about the same distance from the city centre (5km)

Pendrecht is basically completely permeable by car. Everyone has on or off street parking and nobody is arbitrarily blocked from reaching any of the boundary roads. In fact the suburb is bisected by one. Acces to those boundary roads is limited to a handful of points, however. This would be analogous to the legacy road-end closures in London, intended to reduce rat-running. The similarity ends though, when you turn on the cycling layer in google maps:

Pendrecht: Google Maps
Tulse Hill: Google Maps

To anyone but the adventuorous cyclist, you're effectively trapped in the LTN by busy roads with zero cycling infrastructure.

LTNs are an emergency measure (and the emergency is climate change and the general social ills that car-centric cities cause, not covid which was a handy excuse) so I'm in favour of them, on balance. But they really do have to be accompanied by some carrots. Brixton Hill, Tulse Hill and Christchurch Road are plenty wide enough for segregated bike lanes, but TfL don't have the political will or budget to put the kind of infrastructure that's actually needed.

 

[sleaterkinney]

They absolutely have a mandate, they were elected after these went in. The candidates who were anti LTNs in Lambeth, Southwark and Islington got nowhere.

Add Oxford to that list, in spite of all the druids etc.

 

[ianarmstrong]

One thing I find interesting/ annoying/ hilarious depending on my mood is my weekly supermarket delivery. I start chatting with the driver amicably and without fail they move onto LTN’s (I live in a well documented one) ask what I think, ignore my view and then start slagging them off. The funniest one was “ how much do all the signs cost- they could employ more nurses with that money”. (You would like that one ianarmstrong as I know you like signs). Ignore the fact that councils don’t employ nurses maybe we would need less nurses if we had less pollution. Also do they not consider that I may be getting a delivery as I don’t choose to have a car. “ less signs more nurses”
I also had a black cab refuse to take me as I am in an LTN and they have cameras. I complained to TFL and they said his attitude would be considered when his license was up for renewal.

The black cab driver should be able to navigate into the LTN or around it to get to your home or you could have advised the best route - the back cab knowledge probably has not been updated to accommodate all the LTNs across London so they may be using satnav apps to help as any driver who qualified before the LTNs where installed will be learning about them just like all the other drivers on the road are - either way he earns more money the further the journey is and he if is travelling around the LTN to get your home and stuck in congestion then you will be the one paying for that extra mileage and time taken not him.

 

[Cat Fan]

lol @ drivers of cars not being petrol heads

I drive an electric car (infrequently), so there's your counterexample

 

[Cat Fan]

I somewhat agree with the idea that LTNs are a blunt instrument. They're all stick, no carrot. It's all well and good forcing people out of their cars and onto bikes, and I can speak from much experience that it is much more pleasant to cycle in LTN areas than it used to be, but as soon as you reach a boundary road you're still fucked. Compare and contrast a Rotterdam suburb, Pendrecht, to the Tulse Hill LTN (from Brixton Water Lane to Christchurch Road, between Tulse Hill and Brixton Hill). Both are about the same size (1km²) and are about the same distance from the city centre (5km)

Pendrecht is basically completely permeable by car. Everyone has on or off street parking and nobody is arbitrarily blocked from reaching any of the boundary roads. In fact the suburb is bisected by one. Acces to those boundary roads is limited to a handful of points, however. This would be analogous to the legacy road-end closures in London, intended to reduce rat-running. The similarity ends though, when you turn on the cycling layer in google maps:

Pendrecht: Google Maps
Tulse Hill: Google Maps

To anyone but the adventuorous cyclist, you're effectively trapped in the LTN by busy roads with zero cycling infrastructure.

LTNs are an emergency measure (and the emergency is climate change and the general social ills that car-centric cities cause, not covid which was a handy excuse) so I'm in favour of them, on balance. But they really do have to be accompanied by some carrots. Brixton Hill, Tulse Hill and Christchurch Road are plenty wide enough for segregated bike lanes, but TfL don't have the political will or budget to put the kind of infrastructure that's actually needed.

A 100% sensible and non ideological post. Well done!

TFL are supposed to be introducing a segregated bus/cycle lane on A23, Streatham Hill at some point. But it's always piecemeal.

I will only cycle into work when I have a segregated cycle lane all the way from Streatham to the city of London. I'm not alone in this, most cyclists (especially women and children) don't feel safe on boundary roads.

So I think LTNs don't make a significant difference to cyclability of London. In fact for longer trips they may make things worse.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I used to walk and cycle everywhere but as I get older my knees are no longer working as well as they used to - I can walk about as I did yesterday when I went to the office and caught a bus then a tube but every step is often a painful step and standing for too long causes more pain so I try not for walk or stand for too long - I still play squash a couple of times a week but at a much reduced level than what I did when I was younger and more able

Stop playing squash, it's why your knees are screwed. Cycling will fix them.

 

[ianarmstrong]

Stop playing squash, it's why your knees are screwed. Cycling will fix them.

I can't stop playing squash - I like it too much - my mother has had both knees replaced due to arthritis so I think it is hereditary rather than being due purely to playing squash

 

[liquidindian]

So I think LTNs don't make a significant difference to cyclability of London.

My commute is about 60% segregated and part of that is one of Lambeth's LTNs. That's enough to convince me to do my commute by (e)bike, especially if things are going to continue to change for the positive.

I don't think that the way you feel is uncommon but I don't think it's quite that binary for everyone.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I can't stop playing squash - I like it too much - my mother has had both knees replaced due to arthritis so I think it is hereditary rather than being due purely to playing squash

Nah, it's all the stopping and starting and twisting. It will mess them up by itself.
I got back into cycling after a knee injury and it was the only thing that worked.