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Petition to request parliament review LTNs

so I just spent a few hours in one of the disputed LTNs and it was pretty impressive - between 7 Sisters and Green Lanes there was not one single car crossing our path. I walked, toddler was on his balance bike, and not once did I have to tell him to be careful or mind a car. It was quiet and felt safe.
I know there are issues with LTNs, but as a glimpse into a future with far less cars and safer and cleaner roads - I take it!
 
maomao said:
Who decides what's reasonable?
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The person themselves ultimately but I can think of a variety of reasons why completing a journey using active travel or PT may not be feasible, appropriate and reasonable - I would have expected TFL to have done more work in that regard when compiling their data especially if they and others are using it to impose policies that attempt to force people to switch from a car journey to active travel or PT
 
sleaterkinney said:
Feasible, appropriate and reasonable are not measurable things, so how on earth could someone get those stats?
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Maybe TFL could conduct some surveys of people who are completing such journeys to try and establish what characteristics are prevalent that might prevent them from being completed using active travel or PT
 
ianarmstrong said:
The person themselves ultimately but I can think of a variety of reasons why completing a journey using active travel or PT may not be feasible, appropriate and reasonable - I would have expected TFL to have done more work in that regard when compiling their data especially if they and others are using it to impose policies that attempt to force people to switch from a car journey to active travel or PT
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Nobody is forcing anything, you can still use a car, they're making alternatives more feasible.
 
maomao said:
You said the UK is responsible for less than 1% of emissions. He explained why that was nonsense. It was your evidence. If it'd itrelevant you should apologise for bringing it up.
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The goalposts always move in these arguments because there’s never a real case against improving peoples lives - even if we did only generate 1% of the emissions it’s worth making everyone’s lives safer and cleaner as much as we can and to say it’s not cos China did a carbon is to ignore the impact modern cars have on mental and physical health and the environment

There’s always another study to be done to this time really prove LTNs or delegitimising car travel works and until then status quo
 
Cat Fan said:
Yes, and also just to add that I think this route has significant elevation gain. Would you agree? Cycling up and down Denmark hill/Herne hill is quite tiring for the amateur cyclist.

The "flattest" route via central Brixton is a major road that is scary even to drive on let alone cycle. This is what happens when roads are designed for cars/buses.
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This route is no more hilly than the direct one. And hills are only as tiring as you make it. In low gear, cycling is less tiring than walking at the same speed.
The Brixton route is the direct route, easy to intuitively follow. And even through central Brixton the road is wide enough for proper lanes, but road traffic would have to be cut in half to fit in the remaining space. Basically buses and truly essential vehicles only.
 
klang said:
so I just spent a few hours in one of the disputed LTNs and it was pretty impressive - between 7 Sisters and Green Lanes there was not one single car crossing our path. I walked, toddler was on his balance bike, and not once did I have to tell him to be careful or mind a car. It was quiet and felt safe.
I know there are issues with LTNs, but as a glimpse into a future with far less cars and safer and cleaner roads - I take it!
Click to expand...
yeah it's a great LTN says someone living in the middle of it :) And we now have some segregated cycle lanes - stretches of the High Road and Green Lanes...
 
ianarmstrong said:
For you maybe but for the average punter in the street they probably don't understand that

Great work and of course you do not need to be young, fit and healthy to be able to cycle but you need a certain level of those things so I would support all the things you and your NHS trust are doing and that should be expanded to others but wide area 24/7 LTNs that increase mileage, congestion and pollution cause more problems than they solve in my opinion which is why I think a review is needed.
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No, the point is you do not need any level of health or fitness to cycle and can be old.

Now to be clear what I'm not saying. I'm not saying everyone can cycle. There are disabilities which preclude cycling for sure.

But you can be extremely unfit and unhealthy and in your 60s or 70s and be more than able to cycle 2km. We get people of that age, diabetic or pre diabetic, obese, high blood pressure, high cholesterol as they all come together and get them cycling, and they come for exercise but many go on to continue cycling for transport.

It's simply wrong to exclude people in a blanket way like that.

And on the same point there's plenty of disabilities that preclude driving but not walking or cycling. But you talk as if all disabled people need cars and don't benefit from walking and cycling being prioritised.

The question of whether LTNs are working or not is completely aside to that, what we really need is Dutch level of infrastructure on main roads, but LTNs do make it more pleasant to cycle or walk inside then and are a piece of the puzzle in my opinion. But I'd build the cycle lanes first.
 
maomao said:
Well that's bollocks. All the lazy twats will decide its reasonable to drive.
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sleaterkinney said:
Feasible, appropriate and reasonable are not measurable things, so how on earth could someone get those stats?
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I’ll list a few reasons why someone who is not using their motor vehicle for work purposes may need to complete their supposedly unnecessary journey using a motor vehicle:

1. Disability is not always visible nor is it always recorded as such in the eyes of the authorities so in order to go out and live life like an independent person a motor vehicle may be the only way someone can get somewhere otherwise they may be forced to stay home and lead less of an independent and isolating life
2. Illness may make it difficult for someone to be able to walk or cycle or use public transport and a motor vehicle may be the only way they can get around
3. Infirmity may make it difficult for someone to be able walk or cycle or use public transport and a motor vehicle may be the only way they can get around
4. Phobia may make it difficult for someone to be able to walk or cycle or use public transport and a motor vehicle may be the only way they can get around
5. Any number of medical conditions may make it difficult to walk or cycle or use public transport and a motor vehicle may be the only way they can get around
6. Covid/viruses - some people may still be shielding and may need to stay off public transport for health reasons
7. Late night shift workers - public transport does not run everywhere 24/7 so a motor vehicle may be the only way to get home or get to work for some in a reasonable timeframe
8. Long circuitous routes are not served well by public transport - some journeys may require you to head into Central London and switch to another major station to then go back out when a direct route using a motor vehicle would save time which could facilitate more family time at home
9. Safety, many people, especially women do not want to use public transport late at night on their own and would prefer to take a cab or drive and there are numerous well known cases of women being harassed, attacked or sexually assaulted and even murdered when out walking on their own
10. Cab fares are not cheap these days and you can't always get a cab when you need one and if someone regularly needs to get to/from work at an unsociable time the cost of a long cab ride may well be more than the cost of running a car - the minimum fare for even the shortest cab ride is close to £10 - if you had to get a cab twice a day for work purposes at a cost of £7.50 and you worked between 200 and 250 days a year you would spend between £3k to £3750 a year and running a car would probably be cheaper
11 Antisocial behaviour / crime / violence / safety on the street and on public transport is often a problem especially late at night that many people would not want to encounter such issues
12. Safety issues riding a bike may put off some people using a bike to complete short journeys
13. Family or friends giving someone seen as vulnerable such as a child or OAP a lift home to ensure they get home
14. Taking large items short distances such as personal possessions or or shopping may not be possible on foot or using a bike or on public transport

I'm sure I could think of more scenarios but all of these could be said to be valid reasons why someone would not be unreasonable in completing a journey using a motor vehicle
 
ianarmstrong said:
I’ll list a few reasons why someone who is not using their motor vehicle for work purposes may need to complete their supposedly unnecessary journey using a motor vehicle:

1. Disability is not always visible nor is it always recorded as such in the eyes of the authorities so in order to go out and live life like an independent person a motor vehicle may be the only way someone can get somewhere otherwise they may be forced to stay home and lead less of an independent and isolating life
2. Illness may make it difficult for someone to be able to walk or cycle or use public transport and a motor vehicle may be the only way they can get around
3. Infirmity may make it difficult for someone to be able walk or cycle or use public transport and a motor vehicle may be the only way they can get around
4. Phobia may make it difficult for someone to be able to walk or cycle or use public transport and a motor vehicle may be the only way they can get around
5. Any number of medical conditions may make it difficult to walk or cycle or use public transport and a motor vehicle may be the only way they can get around
6. Covid/viruses - some people may still be shielding and may need to stay off public transport for health reasons
7. Late night shift workers - public transport does not run everywhere 24/7 so a motor vehicle may be the only way to get home or get to work for some in a reasonable timeframe
8. Long circuitous routes are not served well by public transport - some journeys may require you to head into Central London and switch to another major station to then go back out when a direct route using a motor vehicle would save time which could facilitate more family time at home
9. Safety, many people, especially women do not want to use public transport late at night on their own and would prefer to take a cab or drive and there are numerous well known cases of women being harassed, attacked or sexually assaulted and even murdered when out walking on their own
10. Cab fares are not cheap these days and you can't always get a cab when you need one and if someone regularly needs to get to/from work at an unsociable time the cost of a long cab ride may well be more than the cost of running a car - the minimum fare for even the shortest cab ride is close to £10 - if you had to get a cab twice a day for work purposes at a cost of £7.50 and you worked between 200 and 250 days a year you would spend between £3k to £3750 a year and running a car would probably be cheaper
11 Antisocial behaviour / crime / violence / safety on the street and on public transport is often a problem especially late at night that many people would not want to encounter such issues
12. Safety issues riding a bike may put off some people using a bike to complete short journeys
13. Family or friends giving someone seen as vulnerable such as a child or OAP a lift home to ensure they get home
14. Taking large items short distances such as personal possessions or or shopping may not be possible on foot or using a bike or on public transport

I'm sure I could think of more scenarios but all of these could be said to be valid reasons why someone would not be unreasonable in completing a journey using a motor vehicle
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Or they might just be a lazy twat. I'm 48 have lived in London (from zone two to zone six) and me and my whole family have managed without a car our whole lives. My son is on DLA and we could have a motobility one for free but we manage.
 
Last edited:
BigTom said:
No, the point is you do not need any level of health or fitness to cycle and can be old.

Now to be clear what I'm not saying. I'm not saying everyone can cycle. There are disabilities which preclude cycling for sure.

But you can be extremely unfit and unhealthy and in your 60s or 70s and be more than able to cycle 2km. We get people of that age, diabetic or pre diabetic, obese, high blood pressure, high cholesterol as they all come together and get them cycling, and they come for exercise but many go on to continue cycling for transport.

It's simply wrong to exclude people in a blanket way like that.

And on the same point there's plenty of disabilities that preclude driving but not walking or cycling. But you talk as if all disabled people need cars and don't benefit from walking and cycling being prioritised.

The question of whether LTNs are working or not is completely aside to that, what we really need is Dutch level of infrastructure on main roads, but LTNs do make it more pleasant to cycle or walk inside then and are a piece of the puzzle in my opinion. But I'd build the cycle lanes first.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with anything you say on people with disabilities and people who are unfit and unhealthy being supported to cycle and being capable of cycling - I wasn't trying to generalise or exclude all people with these characteristics I was simply identifying that some people cannot walk or cycle for various reasons although many may be happy to do it as a leisure activity and some will be able to use it for their transport needs but not all.

If your disability precludes you from driving then family members may be the ones doing the driving or they may be using the services of other drivers such as bus transport for disabled people or taxis.

LTNs may work for some people but they don't work also for many people and there are lots of issues caused by them which are being ignored and hidden by the authorities imposing then which is why a review is needed. When residents report issues that they are experiencing due to LTNs and they are told by the council officers and councillors that they are listening and want to hear from residents but they then do absolutely nothing about the issues and often gaslight the residents by claiming that what they are experiencing is not actually happening by referring to monitoring data which seems designed to produce false claims as they do not monitor all of the obvious diversionary roads and those they do monitor are monitored in a very patchy way and they model pollution based on traffic counts which again are flawed as they do not capture congestion details nor slow moving vehicles.

Look at this list of issues reported by residents of Lambeth to the council during the trial period for the LTNs they installed during the pandemic and tell me as an NHS professional that you are not concerned about the numbers

1677875181075.jpeg
 
maomao said:
Or they might just be a lazy twat. I'm 48 have lived in London (from zone two to zone six) and me and my whole family have managed without a car our whole lives. My son is on DLA and we could have a motobility one for free but we manage.
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Good for you and your family but we should not base policy on what one person and their family are able to do
 
ianarmstrong said:
Good for you and your family but we should not base policy on what one person and their family are able to do
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How do you feel about benefits? Do you think people should be able to claim benefits without giving any proof of unemployment? What about proving inability to work?
 
maomao said:
How do you feel about benefits? Do you think people should be able to claim benefits without giving any proof of unemployment? What about proving inability to work?
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What's this has got to do with LTNs?

It's up to the government to determine who is entitled to benefits.
 
ianarmstrong said:
What's this has got to do with LTNs?

It's up to the government to determine who is entitled to benefits.
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I'm trying to show your opinions about transport are inconsistent and that a free-for-all over transport where car drivers are essentially allowed to do whatever the fuck they like at the cost of everyone else's environment and health is anti-social and destructive.
 
maomao said:
I'm trying to show your opinions about transport are inconsistent and that a free-for-all over transport where car drivers are essentially allowed to do whatever the fuck they like at the cost of everyone else's environment and health is anti-social and destructive.
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You seem very angry with the use of 4 letter words repeatedly in your replies.

Motor vehicles have pros and cons and I would say there are more of a benefit to society than a negative.

Safety on the roads has been improving year on year for many years and emissions pollution has been improving year on year for many years.

Drivers are usually pedestrians and often cyclists so your generalisations are inappropriate.
 
ianarmstrong said:
I don't disagree with anything you say on people with disabilities and people who are unfit and unhealthy being supported to cycle and being capable of cycling - I wasn't trying to generalise or exclude all people with these characteristics I was simply identifying that some people cannot walk or cycle for various reasons although many may be happy to do it as a leisure activity and some will be able to use it for their transport needs but not all.

If your disability precludes you from driving then family members may be the ones doing the driving or they may be using the services of other drivers such as bus transport for disabled people or taxis.

LTNs may work for some people but they don't work also for many people and there are lots of issues caused by them which are being ignored and hidden by the authorities imposing then which is why a review is needed. When residents report issues that they are experiencing due to LTNs and they are told by the council officers and councillors that they are listening and want to hear from residents but they then do absolutely nothing about the issues and often gaslight the residents by claiming that what they are experiencing is not actually happening by referring to monitoring data which seems designed to produce false claims as they do not monitor all of the obvious diversionary roads and those they do monitor are monitored in a very patchy way and they model pollution based on traffic counts which again are flawed as they do not capture congestion details nor slow moving vehicles.

Look at this list of issues reported by residents of Lambeth to the council during the trial period for the LTNs they installed during the pandemic and tell me as an NHS professional that you are not concerned about the numbers

View attachment 365359
Click to expand...
You might not have meant to but that's what you did.

Sometimes people with disabilities that preclude driving might get driven around, or use public transport or taxis but cycles give more independence and are cheaper.

We lack the infrastructure for their proper use.

I'm not an NHS professional btw although I understand why you might have got that impression. I manage cycling projects, some of which are in partnership with the NHS because of how magical exercise and socialising can be for so many health conditions, and how good cycling is at achieving both things.

With zero context I have nothing to say about that thing.
 
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