It can only be premeditated if the perps knew he would be in that establishment at that time. Otherwise it’s opportunistic or random.
Owen Jones targeted and attacked
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
It can only be premeditated if the perps knew he would be in that establishment at that time. Otherwise it’s opportunistic or random.
isvicthere?
a.k.a. floppybollocks
And that's a relevant distinction because?
andysays
Love and solidarity
You really can't see that it's relevant?
Maybe you should go back and read the thread and see where the suggestion first came from, and then have a little think about why it's (even more) significant if right-wings twats are carrying out premeditated attacks on those associated with the left.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Sounds more like opportunistic.
ETA - I.e. not random but not planned for days/weeks in advance.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Still concerning obviously, and understandable that OJ might initially describe it as premeditated.
Best wishes to him.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
I dunno, I think arguing over whether it's opportunistic or heavily planned is neither here nor there. Either are premeditated as neither random nor spontaneous. Seems a bit of a cul-de-sac this
It might seem churlish to say, but there definitely is a difference between bumping into fash and getting a kicking and them acting on intel to seek out those to attack. Not a big difference to Jones right now for sure but politically it’s massive.
Like are we back to C18 hit lists and what-not or was he simply in the wrong place at the wrong time?
He's so widely hated in those circles and his face so widely disseminated that I reckon it'll turn out to be opportunistic .
I imagine so. I was just wondering why some were saying the distinction was irrelevant.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
It just seems weird that all the focus has fallen on Jones saying it was premeditated (which covers 'opportunistic' eg planned twenty minutes in advance as much as planned twenty weeks in advance anyway). I don't think anybody seriously thinks it was some meticulously planned ambush by a far right squad, given he's basically got a graze on his back
binka
!!!!!!!!!
Reason number 3,521 'why twitter is shit' I went on that person's Twitter page, it's so obviously not genuine (joined this month, the name Brenda being exactly what a middle class liberal would expect a racist to be called, the mini bio being obvious bollocks) that it actually really annoys me to see people on twitter taking their posts seriously and expending energy replying to their tweets
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
That's premeditated - thought about it then did it. It doesn't need to have weeks of advance planning.
Cid
Proper break this time
Technically, yeah. But you can also take it to mean something planned well in advance... The word doesn't have a lot of clarity as it can mean either.
Surely it’s opportunistic otherwise premeditated is rendered meaningless?
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
Technically? I don't think this is much dispute in legal cases as to a premeditated murder.
verb
past tense: premeditated; past participle: premeditated
- think out or plan (an action, especially a crime) beforehand.
"premeditated murder"
I’m sure most people think about something before doing it given we’re sentient beings but premeditated requires planning.
Cid
Proper break this time
Well there is, which is why it doesn't really get used any more. In the US it was used to prosecute first degree murder, but became somewhat meaningless as - legally - it can mean any degree of planning - including during the course of a fight etc. In that sense most jurisdictions use 'intent' to establish that element of a crime. You might then have an aggravating factor of advanced planning or something.
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
Well if anyone is arrested & their phone records are checked & there was communication between a phone at the Lexington & anyone else who happened to turn up in the next half an hour or so then will you accept it was premeditated?
If I know more facts than Owen Jones does right now in the future will I agree with him?
Is that a rhetorical question?
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
If the case is investigated properly & CCTV is used to to identify the suspects & their phones are examined then if there was contact between the assailants prior to the attack & they were not all previously at the Lexington then it would be safe to say the was some form of premeditation although if they have not used texts it might be difficult to prove.
It could be premeditated, I’m not disputing that. Surely the contention is OJ claiming as such. Anyway, we’re mostly playing Urbans Pedantry here, which, as fun as it is, isn’t adding much. I’ve made my point and happy to agree to disagree.
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
I am sure OJ might be aware if the people who attacked him were in the venue beforehand or just happened to to be outside when he left. I am sure it will come out in the wash.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Opportunistic and premeditated aren't mutually exclusive. If they had just spotted him and immediately attacked, that would not have been premeditated. If they hung around outside waiting for the best time to attack, then it's premeditated.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
could quite easily be some far right violent twat was out with mates and spotted him earlier in the evening - maybe going into the bar or they were already there - and they decided to have a go. that is still premeditated and targeted.
I saw something similar at an anti-war stall in leeds in 2002ish - I wathced these three or four blokes as they were walking up the road, they clocked that stall - they had a quick conflab, said something like "we doing this then" and moved and kicked the stall over - chinning the guy running it in the process. To me it looked totally opportunistic - but it was completely pre-mediated - and politically motivated.
I saw something similar at an anti-war stall in leeds in 2002ish - I wathced these three or four blokes as they were walking up the road, they clocked that stall - they had a quick conflab, said something like "we doing this then" and moved and kicked the stall over - chinning the guy running it in the process. To me it looked totally opportunistic - but it was completely pre-mediated - and politically motivated.
I don’t agree. Premeditated means they planned on attacking him prior to finding him. Opportunistic also takes planning, but relies on the opportunity arising.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
We'll have to agree to differ then, again 
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