Attacking politicians? Unpicking the ethical dimensions.

[Boris Sprinkler]

It’s ok when left on right, left on centre, left on liberals, left on opportunistic wankers. There is no flip side.

There is already the flip side.

 

[TopCat]

There is already the flip side.

The flip side should be condemned.

 

[Lotte]

OK with it in theory but in practice, it just makes Farage look sympathetic and will make his supporters cling to him even more because of the nasty lefties attacking him. He'll milk it for all it's worth. No pun intended.

 

[Dystopiary]

Would've put this in the "Urban Synchronicity" thread but I suppose it fits here.

 

[Silas Loom]

I think rocks is dodgy - the whole point of milkshakes is that it's silly and essentially harmless but sort of humiliating. Getting into objects and actions that might cause physical harm is taking the low road and from the playbooks of people who support Farage and will do more harm than good. Farage is a shithead but potentially physically harmful attacks are counterproductive.

I don’t think that is true of Farage’s supporters and their playbooks. It’s true of Yaxley-Lennon’s, though, and physical altercations with them are absolutely justifiable in moral and tactical terms.

Milkshakes and other silly, harmless humiliations should be the limit with the likes of Farage.

 

[Dystopiary]

Where should the line be drawn? How much harm caused by a person makes physical attacks justifiable? I mean, I don't know. But I'm not a pacifist.

(eta - content warning: homophobic and transphobic violence)

Stochastic terrorism some people call what the likes of Farage do against minorities. It's violence in itself.

 

[SpookyFrank]

It’s ok when left on right, left on centre, left on liberals, left on opportunistic wankers. There is no flip side.

Racists and people who don't like racists: both as bad as each other.

 

[The39thStep]

Throwing rocks at Farage, not that there is anyone throwing rocks or even advocating throwing rocks at him, won't stop his support. He is a racist hypocritical spiv who has mainly been bigged up by the media , he's not a fascist.

Fascists however who want to control the streets or physically attack or intimidate opposition, and rely on that for support, can be stopped by throwing rocks and political intervention where they try to recruit.

 

[Wilf]

Not sure where the line should be drawn - eggs, milkshakes, etc. are fine, then you start getting to molasses, mud, and peanut butter, then eventually bricks, rocks, etc. - some experiments should be carried out to determine the correct Farage Viscosity Index

I go by the simple rule that anything beyond titanium takes us into a gray area.

 

[Elpenor]

Throw dog whistles at him; see how he likes it

 

[Wilf]

If you react properly you can earn some respect.

View attachment 428534

Great photo that, the punch hasn't quite reached his brain, still smirking.

 

[steveo87]

As much as the notion of Farrage of getting a cup of 'unknown corrosive liquid' to the face, the reality is that its important to stick to the milkshake/cup of concrete.

The right will just use it as another excuse to blame the 'woke left' for their only failings.

Also its becoming a bit of a 'meme' now. The anticipation of something being chucked at the frog faced fuck (et al) will be to great to the point where I wouldn't be surprised that they started to use 'plants' to do it - as was the initial rumour from the other day. So I would stick with my tried and tested 'call a politician a cunt to their face' technique- which is both legal, and a lot of fun.

See also 'fuck you, Tory.'

 

[Karl Masks]

He should be milkshaked every day to the point he can't leave the house without fearing dairy.

Physical objects isn't really cool. Even if he's a fascist twat.

 

[Dystopiary]

 

[hitmouse]

I don’t think that is true of Farage’s supporters and their playbooks. It’s true of Yaxley-Lennon’s, though, and physical altercations with them are absolutely justifiable in moral and tactical terms.

Milkshakes and other silly, harmless humiliations should be the limit with the likes of Farage.

Yeah, I think I am coming round to that perspective (also this is a rare point where it seems like you and 39th are more or less in agreement?), there's a whole set of antifascist tactics and strategy that have evolved for dealing with those, like Yaxley-Lennon and those who came before him, who seek to gain power by projecting an image of physical strength and invulnerability, and that toolkit doesn't really work when you try to apply it to people who aren't trying to do that. There's no Farage ubermensch image to undermine.
In some ways, I suppose we're perhaps back at the old BNP debate, since they were an organisation that very much came out of that physical force tradition and then moved into a different way of operating, which caused... well, various posters here probably remember it more than I do, it caused strategical and tactical questions I suppose is the short version.

As for the slippery slope, thin end of the wedge argument, I'm not sure I'm convinced by it in terms of "what if they do it to you?" just because of the fact that we are living in a post-Jo Cox world, if things had gone a bit differently then maybe Jack Renshaw would've managed to assassinate Rosie Cooper too, I think from the perspective of June 2016 any attack on a politician that's not fatal is still a de-escalation. I don't think that throwing milkshakes or even harder objects at politicians makes a repeat of that any more, or less for that matter, likely.
But, having said all that, I think there is still some reason to be uncomfortable, or reflective or whatever, just in terms of how we think about "our" own tactics. I do genuinely think that, for instance, the more that milkshaking becomes a meme again, the more likely it is that some div is going to feel compelled to milkshake an ACG stall outside the bookfair, or similar, and I don't think that sort of thing helps anyone.

(Bonus reflection for anarcho-trivia nerds: I had actually been thinking about the Northern Voices salad cream incident a bit in recent weeks, even before this. And my take on that is that I'd still struggle to condemn it, but I also don't think that chucking salad cream over other people's stuff is a healthy way of settling disputes inside a movement, even if salad cream is a soft option compared to wet concrete.)

 

[brogdale]

I just think that anti-Faragist protestors should attempt to shadow his every campaigning spectacle with milk-shakes in hand...just to make him and his detail twitchy and with the hope of being arrested for frequenting McDonalds; that would be sweet.

 

[Pickman's model]

He should be milkshaked every day to the point he can't leave the house without fearing dairy.

Physical objects isn't really cool. Even if he's a fascist twat.

Maybe one day you'll come up with something that hasn't already been said

 

[StoneRoad]

Not really in favour of chucking anything more substantial than words or noise at politicians, even self-serving shites like farage, bojo and trump. Although I can understand the feeling that one needs to do so !

IMO throwing physical things - even humiliating ones like rotten tomatoes and milkshakes - is the start of a slope that, ultimately, leads down to situations like the fatal attacks on Jo Cox and David Amess.

 

[mojo pixy]

I think anyone seeking to exercise power over their fellow citizens needs to be aware that there are - and should be - risks inherent in that choice. I don't think 'we the governed' need to calm it down one bit, it's up to those who would govern us to earn our trust and respect by talking to us and for us as if we're responsible adults with equal shares in the future. If they don't, why shouldn't anyone throw whatever they want? Assault is assault anyway, prosecutions will happen anyway. I think throwing messy but harmless things at people who take up a public space talking absolute shit is something there probably ought to be more of tbh.

Murder is not imo on a spectrum with chucking eggs at gobshites.

 

[burtabraham]

The pragmatic reason for not doing such a thing is that it will 1) illicit the same in return, and 2) increase support for those you oppose. So unless you disagree that this will be the result, then anyone carrying out such an act is in effect going against the interests of left.

The ethical reason for not doing it actually is an outgrowth of the pragmatic one. Morals themselves emerge out of the practical experiences of past generations as to the consequences of various actions. As such, the rule ‘treat others as you would like to be treated’ does not exist in the abstract, born out of a naive desire to be nice, but is a basic response to the fact that what goes around has a tendency to come around.

 

[The39thStep]

The pragmatic reason for not doing such a thing is that it will 1) illicit the same in return, and 2) increase support for those you oppose. So unless you disagree that this will be the result, then anyone carrying out such an act is in effect going against the interests of left.

The ethical reason for not doing it actually is an outgrowth of the pragmatic one. Morals themselves emerge out of the practical experiences of past generations as to the consequences of various actions. As such, the rule ‘treat others as you would like to be treated’ does not exist in the abstract, born out of a naive desire to be nice, but is a basic response to the fact that what goes around has a tendency to come around.

The interests of the left?

 

[The39thStep]

Not really in favour of chucking anything more substantial than words or noise at politicians, even self-serving shites like farage, bojo and trump. Although I can understand the feeling that one needs to do so !

IMO throwing physical things - even humiliating ones like rotten tomatoes and milkshakes - is the start of a slope that, ultimately, leads down to situations like the fatal attacks on Jo Cox and David Amess.

Are there case examples to back this theory up?

 

[burtabraham]

The interests of the left?

Yes. If left wing activists start throwing thing at right wing figures, then right wing activists will start throwing things at left wing figures.

There’s a principle within many religious traditions that you should not be disrespectful to others in case they turn round and blaspheme God in return. In this situation it is the initial act of disrespect that is seen as the cause of the blasphemy, making the first person guilty of blasphemy themselves.

By analogy I would argue that a person throwing an object at a right wing figure, if it causes a similar act to occur against a left wing figure, is partially responsible for that second attack.

 

[StoneRoad]

Are there case examples to back this theory up?

Bollox, I've just given you two examples of what, IMO, can result from normalising such behaviour.

 

[Ax^]

I just think that anti-Faragist protestors should attempt to shadow his every campaigning spectacle with milk-shakes in hand...just to make him and his detail twitchy and with the hope of being arrested for frequenting McDonalds; that would be sweet.

still surprised he has not said people are quick setting cement in the milkshakes yet

Andy Ngo being a fuckwit who tried the same lie during trump last tenor in power

 

[brogdale]

Those conducting class war are very fortunate that they only have to worry about milk-shakes

 

[hitmouse]

Bollox, I've just given you two examples of what, IMO, can result from normalising such behaviour.

But cause and effect are the wrong way around here surely, we've already seen the "thick end of the wedge" as in the two examples you gave, which were substantially prior to any milkshake throwing this summer. So I'm not sure the model holds up.

 

[The39thStep]

Yes. If left wing activists start throwing thing at right wing figures, then right wing activists will start throwing things at left wing figures.

There’s a principle within many religious traditions that you should not be disrespectful to others in case they turn round and blaspheme God in return. In this situation it is the initial act of disrespect that is seen as the cause of the blasphemy, making the first person guilty of blasphemy themselves.

By analogy I would argue that a person throwing an object at a right wing figure, if it causes a similar act to occur against a left wing figure, is partially responsible for that second attack.

 

[burtabraham]

View attachment 428681

I don’t know who that is or what it means

 

[TopCat]

Yes. If left wing activists start throwing thing at right wing figures, then right wing activists will start throwing things at left wing figures.

There’s a principle within many religious traditions that you should not be disrespectful to others in case they turn round and blaspheme God in return. In this situation it is the initial act of disrespect that is seen as the cause of the blasphemy, making the first person guilty of blasphemy themselves.

By analogy I would argue that a person throwing an object at a right wing figure, if it causes a similar act to occur against a left wing figure, is partially responsible for that second attack.

Fucking hell