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Is Desmond Tutu a rabid hater of Jews?

YMU: "Rachamim cannot help himself.": I take it this is uspposed to offer soemthing halfway valuable to the htread or forum?

As for youe second paragraph...I am going to have to call foul on your part that IDF and a news paper orgnaisation retracted claims that weaponry was found in ISM office. I WAS IN THE IDF . Is that clear? I did not read it in a paper, I examined the actual weapons. I canot add as much as I wish but safe to say you will not be able to prove your assertions.

Prove your assertion, or I will nicely ask you to stop calling other posters including myself liars. Remember, the AP AND the IDF have retracted this claim accodring to you. PROVE IT.

While I am responding to you, you still have not addressed their staged and doctored photos for which ISM AND Reuters offered retractions (first of 2 retractions offered by Retuers due to Mid-East inaccuracies). Funny though that you would offer us an uncited article that states the inverse. ISM is charged with supplying knowingly doctored photos created by Joe Carr alias this that and the other thing (yep, passport frraud is a federal crime in the US and soemthing taught as ISM symposiums, and a crime committed when used to enter and/or leave Israel) and then farmed out to Reuters who really should not be balmed for tasking the group at its word.

I mean, who would not believe a group who states they are non-violence but violence is ok. Any group with a smart rationale like that would obviously have geiuses employed at every level.

Of course, when you prove your new assertion, we can talk it further.

"Israel's rapidly shrinking Jewish population.": What? The census was released in march. We are now double what we were in terms of Jewish citizens in 1993 sao I have to beg to differe. If you are talking about a disparity between Jewish and Arab birthrates, it might help to be specific. IF that is your point, again you are wrong. It would only be an issue if we decided to annex Gaza and the entire "West Bank" and that obviously will never happen. Ara-Israelis make up 20% of our population and have increased at less than projected numbers of ver the last 30 years. They enjoy the highest standard of living for any Arab demogrpahic IN THE WORLD so that as these Arabs become more affluent the extremly high birthrates come more into synch with the Israeli average of 2.8 children. With kindness, please research your pieces a bit more. It would surely make for more interesting discourse.


AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH, and they you finally add the link!!! Bravo. I would again, VERY KINDLY advise you to well research your spurces before you offer them. "If Americans Knew" is a group I know well and have talked about at length here. Its founder is woman, Alison Weir formerly of California and now of Oregon and a close cowroker of a man named David Duke. Ever hear the name? Former national leader of the KKK and still an avower racist.

Take a look at IAK's Board. Suuuure, they have ex-congessmen but they do not tell you that he blames being voted out of office due to "Jews," or abbout the former US Ambassador to an Arab nation who then worked as a member of the PLO Negotiating Team before they renounced terrorism and hatred of Jews....or about the man who was the US Supt. of Spandau. Ever hear of it? Its star inmate, Rudolf Hess became a close friend and confidant of this man and the two cooperated on at least one book that questions the truth of the Holocaust. Bravo, forget about the inaccuracies on the websirte, it would take ma day to list them, just the Neo-Nazi links make it worth its weight in unmasking bigots.

Now YMU, I do not know you all that much and it IS possible that you merely do not have good study habits and this failed to research your source. If so, foprgive the harshest of my criticisms here but if not, if you admire people like Wei, Hess, and Duke, I would appreciate you letting me know up front so I can gauage honestly whether or not I feel like wasting my personal time swimming aga9inst the current trying to explain Israel's right to exist to a Nazi. Please let me know. Thanks in advance.
 
Nino: "Most criticism of the "West Bank" is called "anti-Semtic.": You will never qualfy that staement and baseless opinions are just about worthless. I mean, you have any graphs or statistics? I will let you in on a little secret....these things ARE analysed, calculated, and addressed. IF you yourself have proof of your claim, please, please let me enjoy it as well. Otherwise, please do not make blanket and incriminating statements.


Grandma: Your curses aside (here they come again), I was entirely correct to point out that 5 week expiration of your article. In my homeland a day can change the world and you produce an article from the middle of April to propve conditions allegedly taking place now. Try being a bit more think skinned. After all, you were able to provide me with much more current articles, right? So why not do it right next time instead of being defencive with constructive criticism.


"OxFam is rabidly anti-Semtic.": Again, for maybe the hundredth time, I do not use the term "anti-Semtic." It is a non-sensical phrase since an enty like OxFam who clearly favours Arabs could never be misconstrued even remotely as anti-Semtitic, given the fact that Arabs are as Semtic as Jews.

In fact, OxFam is only guilty of the same nonsense HRW is and it is not having commie pedigree like HRW, it is the fact that reveal a partisan interest and vested bias just with their terminology and data collection methods.

For example, blame an eiety for a lack of fuel, but mention nothing of the entity that committed large scale terrroist attack in the one terminal dedicated to filling that specific need. That is clearly partisan and biased.

You cry that you have no fuel, and blame Israel, when innocent Israelis died attemting to give you fuel. You say NOTHING AT ALL on the killing of these two civilans, nor do you speak of the graft involved when HAMAS is hijacking 2 or more fifty three feet trailers worth of diesel on a daily basis.
This too shows your intentions.

Want more?
 
Nino: "Most criticism of the "West Bank" is called "anti-Semtic.": You will never qualfy that staement and baseless opinions are just about worthless. I mean, you have any graphs or statistics? I will let you in on a little secret....these things ARE analysed, calculated, and addressed. IF you yourself have proof of your claim, please, please let me enjoy it as well. Otherwise, please do not make blanket and incriminating statements.

Thanks for misrepresenting my post. This is rather typical of you. Then, you have the brass neck to ask for "proof" when you, yourself, have consistently refused to offer any. I don't need "evidence", because even you have resorted to the baseless accusation of "anti-Semitism" in order to shut down discourse. Ergo, evidence is not necessary as there are legion examples.
 
You cry that you have no fuel, and blame Israel, when innocent Israelis died attemting to give you fuel. You say NOTHING AT ALL on the killing of these two civilans, nor do you speak of the graft involved when HAMAS is hijacking 2 or more fifty three feet trailers worth of diesel on a daily basis.

Would you care to cite where Grandma said this? Because this looks nothing like what he posted. More lies and more misrepresentations.
 
Nope, he's been stalking me for days with no provocation. Today he went particularly ballistic. Then he admitted he'd been tripping on MDMA all weekend. If it was you he'd been harrassing, I think you'd point out the connection.

You're well-practiced at lying to yourself, aren't you, phil? ;)
 
I find that weird and a bit disturbing. There's no link between those two Grandma posts, and no logic to your post. You're just stalking him. Grow up or get some help - whichever one it is you need. This is not acceptable, IMO.

Indeed.
 
Grandma: Your curses aside (here they come again), I was entirely correct to point out that 5 week expiration of your article. In my homeland a day can change the world and you produce an article from the middle of April to propve conditions allegedly taking place now. Try being a bit more think skinned. After all, you were able to provide me with much more current articles, right? So why not do it right next time instead of being defencive with constructive criticism.

Hang on are you of all people trying to give me lessons in providing links. Genius :D

In fact, OxFam is only guilty of the same nonsense HRW is and it is not having commie pedigree like HRW, it is the fact that reveal a partisan interest and vested bias just with their terminology and data collection methods.

Your offering a perception with zero evidence of bias in their terminology or ideed data collection. Why am I not surprised. What is pretty evident again is that once any organisation or individual that reflects the reality of the actions of Israel or indeed openly criticises their actions are:

Self Loathing Jews.
Rabid Jew Haters.
Have an agenda.
Founded and run by communists.

You're like a stuck record. :rolleyes:


You cry that you have no fuel, and blame Israel, when innocent Israelis died attemting to give you fuel. You say NOTHING AT ALL on the killing of these two civilans, nor do you speak of the graft involved when HAMAS is hijacking 2 or more fifty three feet trailers worth of diesel on a daily basis.
This too shows your intentions.


Again with these made up conversations in your head. Where exatcly did I say that?
 
Post 131 above:


You're really taken by me aren't you phil? Its ok....I know you have some deep seated issues going on in that mind of yours-but really...I'm not interested in feeding your ego-go find someone else to bother there's a good lad. Either that or start one of your lesbo threads-you obviously get a real kick from them.
 
For the benefit of those who don't read every single thread and thus would perhaps have missed last night's statement: we are currently on zero-tolerance for personal spats and insults, and I will not be reading back "in context" either. I think it's only fair to say this now. Once. (nino has already been banned as he did clearly read what I said - he posted not two posts under it.)
 
For the benefit of those who don't read every single thread and thus would perhaps have missed last night's statement: we are currently on zero-tolerance for personal spats and insults, and I will not be reading back "in context" either. I think it's only fair to say this now. Once. (nino has already been banned as he did clearly read what I said - he posted not two posts under it.)

Totally agree. Looking forward to not being bothered by phil again. :)
 
Also as a general point

* do not report posts multiple times
* do not report posts from days before which have already been dealt with
* anybody "demanding" that somebody be removed in a post report will be ignored unless mods felt like banning them anyway
* reports saying "it's been THIRTY WHOLE SECONDS since I reported this post WHY HASN'T IT BEEN DEALT WITH" will go in the bin too. Very occasionally, you know, mods do other things with their time.
 
Anyway, just to return to the topic of the thread, no-one is suggesting that "Desmond Tutu is a rabid hater of Jews." What *is* clear from his speeches, however, is that he has a *supersessionist* view of the Jews. He sees them and their religion as superseeded by Christianity. Now, there are plenty of Christian theologians who do not believe this, for it is obviously quite an offensive thing to believe, but Tutu is not among them. It is hardly a massive logical leap to connect this conservative theology with his hostile attitude to the state of Israel. And I think that should settle the matter.
 
YMU: "Rachamim cannot help himself.": I take it this is uspposed to offer soemthing halfway valuable to the htread or forum?

As for youe second paragraph...I am going to have to call foul on your part that IDF and a news paper orgnaisation retracted claims that weaponry was found in ISM office. I WAS IN THE IDF . Is that clear? I did not read it in a paper, I examined the actual weapons. I canot add as much as I wish but safe to say you will not be able to prove your assertions.

Prove your assertion, or I will nicely ask you to stop calling other posters including myself liars. Remember, the AP AND the IDF have retracted this claim accodring to you. PROVE IT.

I can prove it - you're a liar.

Associated Press said:
Army backtracks on details about militant arrest at International Solidarity Movement
2 hours, 38 minutes ago


JERUSALEM - The Israeli army on Saturday withdrew its claim that a gun was found during a search of a West Bank office of the International Solidarity Movement, a pro-Palestinian group.



Israeli troops raided the office in the West Bank town of Jenin on Thursday and seized a wanted member of the militant Islamic Jihad group.

Originally, the army reported that a pistol was found in the office during the search. On Saturday, the army withdrew the allegation, saying only a weapon was found in the building, which also has apartments and the offices of two other international organizations.

"The information originally released was wrong," an army spokeswoman said. It was unclear where exactly the gun was found.

The army alleged that the Islamic Jihad member, accused of planning several attacks against Israelis, was being sheltered by the International Solidarity Movement.

The group, however, said there were clashes outside their office on Thursday when the man appeared in the stairway. A volunteer invited him into the office because he looked hurt, the group said.

"He looked terrified, was soaking wet and appeared to be in pain. Concerned about his welfare ... he was brought into the apartment," a statement from the group said. "He was given a change of clothes, a hot drink and a blanket."

The group said the man spoke Arabic and none of the members in the office could communicate with him. Shortly after he entered, Israeli troops arrested him.

He is still being held and has not yet been charged.

Members of the International Solidarity Movement often act as human shields, placing themselves in between Israeli troops and Palestinians.

An American member of the group was killed on March 16 while trying to stop an Israeli military bulldozer in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites). She fell in front of the machine, which ran over her and then backed up, witnesses said.

Israeli officials are still investigating the bulldozer incident that killed 23-year-old Rachel Corrie, a student at The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington.
 
While I am responding to you, you still have not addressed their staged and doctored photos for which ISM AND Reuters offered retractions (first of 2 retractions offered by Retuers due to Mid-East inaccuracies). Funny though that you would offer us an uncited article that states the inverse. ISM is charged with supplying knowingly doctored photos created by Joe Carr alias this that and the other thing (yep, passport frraud is a federal crime in the US and soemthing taught as ISM symposiums, and a crime committed when used to enter and/or leave Israel) and then farmed out to Reuters who really should not be balmed for tasking the group at its word.
Rach - you keep stating this, but it just is not true. The group were there for hours that day - noone has ever suggested that the cameras were being used continuously. Obviously they weren't.

This is a photo story published on the day that Rachel was killed, 16th March 2003, using the ISM press release and the photos included in it. Note that every photo is captioned with the time period it was taken, a note on what was happening and the location. As has been repeatedly said, the fact that some lazy journalists did not bother to make the circumstances of the photos clear, and presented tham as a sequence is not the fault of the original press release, which was meticulously accurate.

largerachfront.jpg

Picture taken between 3:00-4:00PM, 16 March 2003, Rafah, Occupied Gaza. Rachel Corrie (L) and Nick (R) oppose the potential destruction of this home (to the west of the Doctor's home where Rachel was killed). In the instance pictured, the bulldozer did not stop and Rachel was pinned between the scooped earth and the fence behind her. On this occasion, the driver stopped before seriously�injuring her. Photo by Joseph Smith (ISM Handout).


You are a liar.



 
I mean, who would not believe a group who states they are non-violence but violence is ok. Any group with a smart rationale like that would obviously have geiuses employed at every level.

Of course, when you prove your new assertion, we can talk it further.
This is a willful misrepresentation and you know it - I've posted this before, I'm sure.

Does the ISM support suicide bombers and terrorists? You have a statement on your website that says that, don’t you?

The ISM does not support or condone any acts of terrorism – which is not legitimate armed struggle. The ISM does not associate, support, or have anything to do with armed or violent resistance to the occupation. The ISM does not assist or engage in any kind of armed resistance, no matter what form it may take.

The statement in question is taken from the ISM Mission Statement:

“As enshrined in international law and UN resolutions , we recognize the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle. However, we believe that nonviolence can be a powerful weapon in fighting oppression and we are committed to the principles of nonviolent resistance.”

This right to resist occupation applies not only to the Palestinian people, but to all peoples who are faced with a military occupation. The ISM regards all people as equals with equal rights under international law. We believe that nonviolent action is a powerful weapon in fighting oppression and are committed to the principles of nonviolent resistance.

http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/about-ism/tough-questions/#support

You are a liar.
 
"Israel's rapidly shrinking Jewish population.": What? The census was released in march. We are now double what we were in terms of Jewish citizens in 1993 sao I have to beg to differe. If you are talking about a disparity between Jewish and Arab birthrates, it might help to be specific. IF that is your point, again you are wrong. It would only be an issue if we decided to annex Gaza and the entire "West Bank" and that obviously will never happen. Ara-Israelis make up 20% of our population and have increased at less than projected numbers of ver the last 30 years. They enjoy the highest standard of living for any Arab demogrpahic IN THE WORLD so that as these Arabs become more affluent the extremly high birthrates come more into synch with the Israeli average of 2.8 children. With kindness, please research your pieces a bit more. It would surely make for more interesting discourse.
The census in 2001 was only 72% Jewish Rach. What's the percentage now? As for 1993, the population should have gobe up an awful lot in 15 years. How much did it go up?

You lie to yourself too.
 
Nino: I realise you are in the midst of your 48 hour ban and might not see this when you return but I want to address your points, in all fairness.

You say that I refuse to provide proof but in reality there is only one person to whom that would be true. The reason why I do not jump hurdles for this person is because of the lack of civility. Who in their right mind would dig for sources, to verify soemthing they themselves already know very well, when the person asking curses them regularly and otherwise insults them to no end?

When asked in a civil fashion, I do do my best to provide sources. This is evident to many people, I do not know what to tell you if it is not evident to you. Perhaps you do not want to see it.

I will also add, for purposes of accuracy, that there ARE other times where I do not knowingly renege on offering proffered sources. I, like many people, have a real life outside of U75 and have obligations that sometimes cause me to lose traack of such things. In those cases, when reminded in a civil fashion, I continue to do my best to meet the request.

"Rachamim has resorted to the charge of 'anti-Semitism' (sic) to shut down discourse (sic).": Nino, have you bothered to look at the title of this particular thread? When appropriate, I offer my opinion. Labeling someone other than yourself as anything is a matter of opinion unless it something they themselves have confirmed (in terms of intangible issues like another's opinion, etc.).

"Where did Grandma say that?": Grandma did not as far as I know. It was what is known as a "rhetorical question" with the idea being, obviously lost on you, that "Palestinians" are asking. It should be clear Nino because why on Earth would I be saying Gradnma is whining about not having electricty, etc? Grandma is neither "Palestinian" nor a resident of Gaza as far as I know. While one could argue that my phrasing was ambiguous, even in rereading I do not see where they could not tell that I was asking a rhetorical question of Gazans.
 
Grandma: "Rachamim of all people offering Grandma lessons on links.": Well it does seem ironic being that you are in fact the person I almost always refuse to oblige in that area. Yet, you used that link as a basis of your "conversation" with me and in your claiming that a particular situation was in existence, in Gaza, you failed to do so with that much older (in relative terms) article.

There the irony disappears. I do not need to quibble with you over the issue of either sources OR Gaza. I am a citizen of that region and have seen it close up. I was also part of the entity on one side of this (for all intensive purposes) 2 sided dynamic. BUT, if you CHOOSE to base your stated opinion on something boviously as non-sensical as THAT, it is only natural that someone (whoever) would call you on it.

"Zero evidence that OxFam has any kind of bias.": Really? When there is (again, for all intensive purposes) a 2 sided dynamic, and you choose to condemn one side without taking into account either context OR the equally it not more so contemptable (not sure on that English word, forgive me if it is not accurate but I do hope it properly conveys my point) behavoir, you are demonstrating bias. It is very simple.

For example...Let us say I work for MFA, the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Let us then imagine that I issue a press release (MFA does not do this, but does release info for the public domain by a number of means) stating that "Palestinians" lynched an Israeli soldier on a bus, in Israel (actual case). I issue it just like that. It is not incorrect in its information. You cannot fault it in that manner. However, I did not include, in this release, the context. The context being that prior to his lynching he turned his M16 on innocent Arabs on that bus and killed several before being overpowered.

I am presenting deplorable actions to you, the lynching of an Israeli soldier after he was dragged feet first off an Israeli bus, but failed to offer the details that would place THAT lynching in an entirely different light. Looks a bit different now, right?

This is what NGOs like OxFam often do.

Other ways that this bias is demonstable is in manners such as phrasing. IF an entity uses a label only on one side, such as a simple word like "worst." When you label soemthing "Worst" you are making a definative claim. When an NGO says the Gazan Closure is the "Wrost Human Rights crime to ever transpire," they are making a very, very, very definative claim. It is also impossible to quantify. How do you ascertain soemthing is the "worst ever"?

Certainly when one considers Darfur, it makes the limitation of Infrastructure, which is what the Gazan Closure really is, seem petty. (The following is rhetorical so there is no misunderstanding) You mean to tell me that Pol Pot murdering 1/3 of his entire nation in a perido of a few years, more than a million people, is not as bad as limiting the amount of gasoline on sale in Gaza? Impeding a demigraphics' shopping habits is worse than the Conquistadores managing to make extinct dozens if not hundreds of entire and separate civilisations is not as bad as Israel not allowing unfettered commerce?

Ergo, this bias is incredibly easy to detect and to call it what it is.

"Whenever someone or something depicts Israel unfavourably they are 'Self Loathing Jews'," etc., etc.": Not at all. I have said this often and I have no doubt that you have read my posting where I say it. I myself have openly criticsed Israel , and encourage CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Israel is a Liberal Democracy and it does not censor opinions either individually or in the Media. there are many ways that I see Israel can improve, and some cases where it is downright remiss . the difference being, I do not ride propaganda just to then take rabbit punches and pretend I am Politically Correct.

If you feel Israel (again rhetorical) should have never been ratified, or even imagined, that is your express right. It is also your right to express it, as it is my right (if it is the case) to find fault with it and to offer rebuttal in a civilised and polite manner. It is not my right to try and silence your opinion, nor to insult you are a person, or even to insult your opinion no matter how distatsteful I find it.

I am able, as I have mentioned elsewhere, to belong to (I believe it is now defunct) Stormfront, as well as to so called "Islamist" websites and converse in a civil manner. I think that one should avail one's self to as many perspectives as possible. If not, how can one then claim that one's own outlook is absolutely correct?

WHEN I use labels such as "Sefl Hating Jew, " I do so carefully and with forethought. I do not toss it out casually. I believe Chomsky to be one, I believe Finkelstein (Gary, or as Westerners usually know him as, "Norman," to be exact) to be one. I have offered my rationale for both and itis not a blanet rationale. It does not rely on basing this label upon their opposition to Israel and/or its policies.

The same holds true for the other derogtaroy labels you have listed.

The spectre of not being "Politically Correct" terrifies some people. Witness the debate on U75 when I offered my admiration for the bare bones ideology of Fascism. Fascism?????! One would have thought I labeled m,yself a pediophile. Many argued that is absolutely must mean that I am racist, or even misunderstood the ideology and thought it was soemthing other than what it is. When this debate reached its peak, a poster in another Forum supplied the full definition of the ideology (Wikipedia, although I do not myself cherish Wiki as a reliable source, in this case it was dead on and not because it conincided with my opinion,etc.) and this almost immediately shut down all the talk on it.

Had I been concerned with Political Correctness I would have never honestly talked about my beliefs. I cherished honesty and integrity instead and a very worthwhile debate ensued. Ergo, when I honestly feel that a public figure is one way or another, why should I not comment on it? All the more so whan this commenting sheds greater light on the issue/s.

"Founded by Communists.": I have already proved that particular accusation, which was made against 2 NGOS that purportedly struggle for Human and Civil Rights without regard to specific ideologies. I actually have more reason to fault those 2 particular organisations (IA and HRW) but that is neither here nor there.

I have a question; Why would correctly stating that an organisation was founded by Communists be some kind of condemnation? I did not mean it as a condemnation but merely as some context for these groups' bias.

"When did Grandma say that?": Again, as I replied to Nino, it was rhetorical and I believe that would be evident to most people.
 
YMU: I will respond to your posts in the order that you have posted them;

Post I) "Rachamim is a liar, AP retracted its story after the IDF retracted its original Press Release.": First, I have to say that at some points I will probably using the word "ALLEGEDLY" just so, I am not sure whether or not some things I post have been in publication and if they have not, my stating them as fact might open me up to liability within the framework of the Israeli legal system.

I think many people here are familiar with the event and those that followed. The IMS offices in Jenin claim to have opened their door and seen a wet and downtrodden man near an internal stairway outside their office suite, situated in a building also housing offices of the IRC and Medicins Sans Frontieres (MSF), as well as many private apartments.

It was after sundown and Jenin, in the midst of a large Counter Terror Op. Combined Israeli Forces were working as a curfew was in effect. ISM, whatever you believe, admits to allowing this man, Shadee Sookeeya (usually transliterated as Shadi Sukiya or Shadi Sukia) to enter their office suite. Sookeeya only spoke Arabic, as they almost do not, noone in the ISM office spoke either Arabic OR Hebrew and so the parties were apparently unable to communicate with one another.

Sookeeya was wet and haggard and so ISM, under Jenin Leader Susan Barclay ushered him into thier little kitchenette area and gave him a new set of dry clothes and a cup of coffee.

At this point, the IDF who had been actively pursuing this man in rapid chase through the empty streets knocked on the ISM's front door. The continuously ignored these knocks as well as demands to open it. Finally, when warned that a the door would be Fingered (blown off its hinges) they complied and opned it. Standing in the doorway, Barclay refused entry, as the few other ISM personel present stood behind her in the doorway.

She was told that her permission was needed, that Washington State was a long way away as was Notre Dame and that she could either stand aside and allow for a thorough but polite search or be floored and swept, then incarcerated as she awaited her certain deportation order (Disclosure: Barclay had been arrested one time previously and ordered Deported but it was then under Appeal). With that, and a few other words, she reluctantly stepped aside and 2 squads (13 men including the CO), entered and searched.

They saw that everyone was dry and noone was visibly shaken as a running suspect would be. Questioning each individual separately, they discovered one could only speak Arabic and could not produce an ID card which is mandatory for everyone within Israel, as well as Gaza and the so called "WB."

The man was questioned in Arabic, simple questions , and when Barclay, the admitted "person in charge" could not concur on these simple answers the man was taken into custody.

ALLEGEDLY, after this the soldiers began searching the rest of the premises and in cabinets located in the kitchenette not only found a pistol as has been reported but 2 AKs and a tiny bit of ammo.

ALLEGEDLY, when questioned, noone, not the Arab detainee nor the ISM personel would take responsibility for the material.

ALLEGEDLY, the solders then took all the personal belongings of the ISM personel, most of whom slept in Arab households but kept the bulk of their personal items in that office suite, into a huge pile in the kitchentte and then broke raw eggs all over it, added flour,etc., etc.

As the personel complained the IDF took the detainee for Final Identification and Interrogation. The man turned out to be the man they had been chasing for Curfew Violation, Shadee Sookeeya. Sookeeya it turned out (contrary to Ms. Barclay's claims) was a senior man in the Jenin PIJ cell.

This took place on 3/27/03. ALL ISM personel were left as is after a thorough checking of their documents and their pedigrees. Although all had entered the "WB" illegaly, and a couple had clear problems with thier identifcations including passports, a report was ALLEGEDLY issued to GSS (SHABAK) and the 2 squads went about their way, delivering Sookeeya ALLEGEDLY to GSS, and then returining to the FOB.

ISM went into Spin Control Mode. There is an AP photographer, let us say his name is Raghreb (last name). He ALLEGEDLY,reputedly being a patriotic "Palestinian" and agreeing apparently with ISM's outlook, often assited the group. For example, the ISM personel like to stay up very late and then sleep until early afternoon, as most action would take place after dark, at least in Jenin (although come to think of it they did this everywhere). When IDF or other Forces were operating as ISM sleeped, Raghreb ALLEGEDLY would warn them and then accompany them at a discreet distance hoping for the kind of shot that would make his career, say someone getting treaded by a Cat D9.

ALLEGEDLY via AP, conflicting accounts began to surface although none made print. The MFA sensing a possible snafu IF things were not accurately reported by the particular IDF CO involved in the Detainment and Operation became nervous. Ergo they issued a Press Release dated 3/29/03 (well, the MFA does not issue Press Releases, just Statements and the Media is then free to take them or not) that said the matter is under investigation and that facts reported in the Statement dated 3/27 might need to be revised. It also specifically added that while the weaponry was found in that building, it is not yet ascertained as to whether or not it was actually found inside of the ISM suite.

ALLEGEDLY, this was meant to counteract ISM threats over official charges for abuses made during search of the premises (abuse in this case evidently being raw eggs and white flour all over your expensive Western rags).



Following the Statement dated 3/29, the AP issued a retraction on its story that relied on background supplied in the 3/27 Statement. Ironically, a week and a half later , the Squaddies were cleared of all charges, Sookeeyah was indeed charged severely, but before that Barcalay was arrested and faced criminal charges which were dropped in exchange for her not contesting her IMMEDIATE Deportation. Finally, the IDF Press Liason took the unusual step to publicly state that the unsepcified automatic pistol, 2 AKs, and unspecified ammo was indeed found IN the ISM suite and more specifically, within the Kitchenette.

Pundits have since pointed out how conveient it was that the wanted man was found to be wearing a different set of clothes when it was only, how do you say? Drizzling outside and the weather not cold at all. Also pointed out, he stood with the group of ISM personel, noone volunteered that he had just entered the premises and noone owned up to admitting they had no idea who he was. I suppose the fact that the IDF almost had to Semtex their front door off did not beg comment since ISM would have probably acted this way with 100 terroirsts inside, or just Ms. Barclay herself.

So, I lied? Not at all. Perhaps such wonderful sites like "American Intifadeh (your link)" are a bit too fringe for reliable information. Maybe I am just reaching for nothing but it just may be that "American Intifadeh" has a partisan putlook. Hmmmm, you think?


For full disclosure I will add that at least the Guardian reported on the AP retraction as well if I remember correctly but it was almost a half decade ago and I could be wrong on that point.


Post II) "ISM was there {at the site of Corrie's death} for hours that day.": Actually, only about 4 hours, and only on the field where the D9s were operating for less than 45 minutes , total. This includes the few times during which she and others repeatedly circumvented the erected barricades and armed soldiers and Border Police and ran onto the field.

"Noone suggested that cameras were being used constantly.": I did not say you did. Nor did I say anything like that. More precisely, what does that have to do with anything? In fact, cameras were there constantly. All D9s are equpiied both with live CCTV that is recorded, as well as Operational CCTV to assist Operators due to the very low visibility from the cab, as well as Intel and other Authoritarian Agencies photographing the job site, the Operation, and more to the point all Activists and others witnessing the scene.

Lucky there were there because otherwise the claim that "Palestinians" in the crowd (where Corrie, et al were standing) tossed a live grenad at an IDF tank, and that it exploded, and shortly thereafter raked the area with AK fire. This helped investigators immensely as they sought to rtecreate ALL the vents preceeding and post incident.

"Photo from Post II": Ahhhh. That is one of the fakes taken by Carr (Carr is man of many names and was known as Joseph Smith at the time he was with Corrie in Gaza).

Ms. Corrie was not pinned by any fence, nor was that even the site of the demotlition, nor was it the day she died. The man was not a "doctor" but a pharmacist and his house was not being demolished.

The Op was to grade the field immediately behind the pharmacist's home so that the many Smuggling Tunnels with outlets in that junk and weed strewn field had to be closed up because at that time the smuggling was mostly devoted to weaponry, and to a smaller extent drugs.


Following the link in that Post # II we find that you have now switched sources and instead of "American Intifadeh," you now are relying on "Electronic Intifadeh." Even if a source is highly biased, as both of yours certainly are, they may offer valuable facts, especially if they offer documentary evidence such as photos of film.



I will continue the rest of my complaints about your sourced article in Post #2, in a following post due to the character count that limits the length of this post.
 
YMU: Article II) Following your hyper link we see you have now switched sourcing from "American Intifadeh" to "Electronic Intifadeh." OF course both are blatantly bias but that is not really so much of an issue if either site can offer decent documentary evidence, photos, films, etc.

Alas, this new site DOES offer photos, as well as an article talking about the day Ms. Corrie was killed. Let us examine it...


"Demolishing the house...": WHAT? The Operation that day was to merely grade a medium sized lot in the border Belt on the outskirts of Rafah. This field had many outlets for Smuggling Tunnels and these needed to be graded and then filled with cement. That was the extent of the Op.

"Played cat and mouse with the dozers for 2 hours.": First, collectively speaking, Ms. Corrie spent less than 45 minutes total in the filed and this includes at least a few circumventing of police barricades and running onto the field, into the path of D9 dozers, before being manhandled out of harms way over and over by Israeli soldiers and Border Police.

The idea that people would play cat and mouse with a D9 dozer is insane. I do not know so will ask you. Have you ever even seen a D9? Its blade alone is just under 8 feet TALL. These are not regular D9s. Thesy are retrofitted out with heave armour which significantly adds to the overall weight of the machine until it it is a virtual behemoth. The protective measures in the Operasting Cab include armoured windows (meaning metal, not bulletproof plexiglass) with thin slits for visibility.

As a result CCTV and a co-Operator are needed to Operate with an acceptable safety margin. When momentum is in full swing, and soemthing RUNS into its path, and leaves les than 100 meters to stop, that soemthing will quickly become nothing.

"She was murdered.": Nonsense. Murder is the INTENTIONAL act of killing another human being. It rerquires 2 things, I) Forethought, and II) Malice. Do you really believe that the operator of that D9 was thinking as he saw her running back and froth that he was going to just flatter her? Do you think he was intetionally trying to do her harm? For it to be murder you will need to be able to say yes to both.

""Corrie was trying to prevent illegal demolitions.": This one is arguable because it is actually believed, by Israeli Intel, that she in her naivete (nice way I suppose of describing what was) believed that the pharmacits's home (ahe was very friendly with him which might have contributed to her unhinged mental state) was set to be demolished. It did lie in the Security Belt where many other buildings WERE being demolished, and this field was directly behind his home. However, we will never know.

More to the point, such demolitions were not illegal. The UK itself does them, as does the US, and many, many other counties.

"Initially he (the IDF Operator) dropped sand and other debris on her.": That is ludicrous. His plow was in the down mode and he was scraping the ground, moving forward and scooping the soil from underneat her. The Blade was not raised so that it could not have dumped a thing.

"Another foreigner was injured in the same incident.": This is a lie. Not true at all. Only Corrie was treated on scene and only Corrie was placed in ambulance. Only Corrie was treated at the hospital (although she was already DOA).

"She was later transferred to the hospital where she later died.": She died en route, almost immediatly after leaving the field in the ambulance. She was dead long before she arrived at the hospital although it is reported that for sp,me bizarre and grotesque reason "Palestinian" health professionals continued life saving measures over and over and over.

I COULD just keep destroying the article but I guess people should get the point.

YMU, as for the photo at the head of the article, that was not the fieild at all. See? She was not even wearing that outfit on the day of her death. Just shows how much nasty propaganda is still out there in the ether. Joe Carr is aconman with an agenda. Dangerous combination for the naivete.

Anyone needs a smile, I can PM some of Carr's poetry. It is inane as his photjournalism but he is a wiz with the Photoshoppe.
 
Sookeeya was wet and haggard and so ISM, under Jenin Leader Susan Barclay ushered him into thier little kitchenette area and gave him a new set of dry clothes and a cup of coffee.

Sukiya was arrested on March 27th 2003. Susan Barclay was in the US at the time.
Thursday, March 20, 2003

Activist's death focuses spotlight on Mideast struggle

According to movement volunteer coordinator Ed Mast, a Seattle playwright, and Susan Barclay, another volunteer and Seattle resident who recently returned from the West Bank after being deported...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/113302_shield20.shtml

You are a liar.
 
YMU: Post III) "Deliberate Misrepresentation...ISM does NOT support terrorism.": And you yourself offer us an excerpt from thier Mission Statement. No offence YMU but have you even really read it? Whether or not you have, let me show you some points you MUST have missed - as well as a few other admissions from this hate mongering group.

From your own post, sourcing the ISM Mission Statement: Only quoting the relevant phrase: "......legitimate armed struggle."

Now while there is a distinct difference between "terrorism" and "legitimate armed struggle," violence is violence is violence. IF you are a group who says that your aim is "non-violent resistance" (something else claimed by this group of frauds) than this non-violence applies to ALL parties.

Yet, we can see from other quotes I will post that this vision of "armed struggle" is not as innocuous nor vague, as some would have us think;

One of the 4 co-founders, Adam Shapiro, is quoted here from a speech he delivered at the "Third Annual National Student Conference On 'Palestinian' Solidarity" at Ohio State University, November of 2003:

"....'Palestinian' resistance must take on a variety of characteristics, BOTH VIOLENT and non-violent."

Emphasis of course being mine.

This next one comes from Shapiro again, with another of the co-founders, this one his wife Huwaida Awaf, in a rebuttal to a writer in the "Palestine Chronicle," shortly after the preceeeding Conference. In it, Shaprio's words are used again, verbatim, but with alot more explanation and context.:

"In actuality, NON-VIOLENCE IS NOT ENOUGH. Rather, what is needed is non-violent direct action against the occupation (sic)...The 'Palestinian' resistance must take on a variety of characteristics - both non-violent and VIOLENT. But most importantly it must develop a strategy involving BOTH ASPECTS. No other successful non-violent movement was able to achieve what it did without CONCURRENT VIOLENT MOVEMENT."

Emphasis is again mine.


I could continue.

I could also point to an interesting case: The terroist so called Suicide Bombing of Mike's Place, an acoustic jazz club in the Waterfront District of Tel Aviv on 4/30/03. The actors were two BRITISH CITIZENS, Asif Muhammed Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif who had entered Israel and then infiltrated the so called "West Bank" with tecniques that are taught to enrolees in ISM workshops and seminars, and then to Gaza.

On 4/25/03 the two men were part of a group of 6 Brits who dropped by to an ISM apartment in Gaza. After some tea (aaah, you Brits), they and the 5 ISM personel who were in the apratment when the 6 dropped by all left for a Rachel Corrie Memorial get together.

It devolved into the usual violence and the IDF who were maintaining guard as well as maintaining surveillance were able to neutralise the crowd with smoke and tear gas shells fired by tank.

According to Susan Barclay of the Jenin ISM office whom I talked about before (she was the woman who either did or did not allow a terrorist to utlise her premises for hiding his weapons as well as himself and was then deported), that was the last time those 2 particular Brits were seen by any ISM Activist. Additionaly she says, they had not registered with ISM, taking any of their courses or symposiums,etc.

Yet it remains circumstantially damning and many have said that it is just another indication of which way the wind blows with those seemingly unbalanced troublemakers.

Post IV:percentage is entirely different concept apart from numeriocal status. My post referred to the total number of Jews in both cases. The percentage of Jews is hovering around 77%, Arabs at just under 20%, and the reaminder made up of many, many small ethnicties including some Arab groups who do not consider themselves to be Arabs (Bedua, Druse, and Circassians although the last groups is surely not Arab, they have been considered by Arabs to be as such so for brevity's sake I have listed them just so).

The overall number of Jews has just about doubled in the parameters you mentioned. Of course other dempgraphics have had a natural increase, nothing spectacular. Jewish Israelis owe thier boost to Olim (returning Jews) from the former USSR as well as several thousand Jews from other nations who retrurn home each year.

As for the two insults, a kind hint, take allok at the Mods. Stuff is changing. Perhaps you might want to limit your discourse to subject related matter, or otherwise civil discussion. Insulting will just get yourself banned.
 
I could also point to an interesting case: The terroist so called Suicide Bombing of Mike's Place, an acoustic jazz club in the Waterfront District of Tel Aviv on 4/30/03. The actors were two BRITISH CITIZENS, Asif Muhammed Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif who had entered Israel and then infiltrated the so called "West Bank" with tecniques that are taught to enrolees in ISM workshops and seminars, and then to Gaza.

On 4/25/03 the two men were part of a group of 6 Brits who dropped by to an ISM apartment in Gaza. After some tea (aaah, you Brits), they and the 5 ISM personel who were in the apratment when the 6 dropped by all left for a Rachel Corrie Memorial get together.

ISM went to the authorities as soon as news of the Mike's Place bombing was released. They did not and do not have anything to hide.

The other instance of supposed “recklessness” occurred when two Britons briefly visited the ISM Rafah office. One of the Britons later committed a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv. Hammer claims that they were “posing as activists,” although he doesn’t bother to mention exactly how they posed as activists, because his allegation is false.

Soon after the Tel Aviv bombing, ISM activist Raphael Cohen testified at a press conference about his brief encounter with the two:

"Shortly before noon on Friday, the 25th of April, about 15 people came to the ISM apartment in Rafah, the Gaza Strip. They were in three groups: 4 British citizens from London who were looking to prepare a summer camp in Gaza in conjunction with local Palestinians from Rafah; three Italians and two Britons. The last two have been accused of perpetrating the attack in Tel Aviv early last Wednesday morning.

"Our group of 5 offered all of them tea. I asked them general questions like who they were? were they with any group? and what they were doing in Rafah? The two accused Britons answered that they weren’t with any particular organization but that they came with “alternative tourism”...We stayed in the apartment for approximately 15 minutes, before we went down to the place where Rachel Corrie was killed by an Israeli Occupation Force bulldozer on March 16. Owing to the presence and approach of an Israeli army tank, we were only able to spend a few minutes at the site where Rachel was killed. We placed a flower on the place in the dirt where Rachel was run over. Our ISM group then went to the house of Dr. Samir Nasrallah, the house that Rachel died defending, while everybody else, including the group that had visited us, went their own way."

ISM neither harbored nor provided any assistance to the two. When the bombing happended, ISM activists stated upfront that they had briefly met the two. Again, Hammer fails to explain exactly what ISM did that was reckless—only that it was. He is always willing to list the charges, but as a journalist is unwilling to investigate them.

What’s more, even if the two Britons had posed as activists, it is unclear how that would make ISM in any way responsible. Last May, a man disguised as an observant Jew boarded a bus in the French Hill settlement and detonated the explosives strapped to his body. Would that make observant Jews reckless? Would that make the bus driver who allowed him to board reckless?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/mj.html

You are a liar. And a libeller.
 
YMU: I am lying again? Perhaps you missed the part where I pointed out that the Mods are becoming more assertive as of late and it might do you good to remember that. People that insult those that they do not know, are not making much sense at all.

As for your claim, yes, she was most likely in America on the 20th. the incident happened on the 17th, Israeli time, and it would certainly leave more than enough time for her to make it home To Washington given that she was immeditely deported in her plea deal. Try calming down and suing your mind, If you will not research the subject in depth (meaning away from those partisan sites).
 
YMU: I am lying again? Perhaps you missed the part where I pointed out that the Mods are becoming more assertive as of late and it might do you good to remember that. People that insult those that they do not know, are not making much sense at all.

As for your claim, yes, she was most likely in America on the 20th. the incident happened on the 17th, Israeli time, and it would certainly leave more than enough time for her to make it home To Washington given that she was immeditely deported in her plea deal. Try calming down and suing your mind, If you will not research the subject in depth (meaning away from those partisan sites).

The incident happened on the 27th March 2003.

Jenin: Israeli Military Breaks Into Rights Groups Offices: ISM

BBSNews - 2003-03-27 -- JENIN - Jenin has been under 24-hour curfew for 5 consecutive days. During this time 4 children have been shot by the Israeli Occupation Forces, two of whom, age 14 and 15 have died. One 12-year-old is in critical condition and the other is hospitalized. Twenty-six houses in the Jenin camp and city have been occupied by soldiers for the positioning of snipers and other military purposes.

At approximately 4:30am on Thursday March 27, individuals staying in the apartment of the ISM in Jenin’s town center were awakened by the sound of heavy gunfire. One hour later there was another blast. The people in the apartment went to the window to see what was going on. They spotted two military jeeps in the streets below. One of the volunteers went into the hallway to see what was happening and met a young man coming up the stairs. He looked terrified, was soaking wet and appeared to be in pain. Concerned about his welfare – under Israeli military curfew, Palestinians spotted in the streets are shot on site – he was brought into the apartment. He spoke only Arabic, which none of the ISM volunteers present understood. He was given a change of clothes, a hot drink and a blanket. Some of the people in the apartment went down into the street to find out if there was anyone else at risk outside. They were subsequently prevented from re-entering the building by Israeli soldiers. Two women remained with the young man in the apartment. The women began to hear loud noises and banging down below and became frightened. They did not want to leave the apartment or risk the young man leaving – Palestinians found in the streets during Israeli military curfew are shot on site – so they stayed inside.

The Israeli Occupation Forces were breaking into offices in the building, including that of the International Committee of the Red Cross and Medicines San Frontiers. Eventually the military knocked on the ISM door and 30 soldiers entered with their machine guns trained. They arrested the young man, claiming he was “wanted.” The two women were not able to prevent the soldiers from taking the young man, whose name they did not even know, but requested that he be treated humanely.

The Israeli Occupation Forces have labeled every Palestinian man, woman and child a terrorist to justify their widespread use of collective punishment, which include lockdowns, home demolitions and random mass arrests. ISM is concerned about the welfare of this young man and all Palestinian detainees being held in conditions that do not meet the minimal standards set by international human rights laws. They are held without charge and denied medical and legal access.

http://bbsnews.net/bw2003-03-27.html

Facts are not insults. I have provided links which prove you to be a liar over and over again. You won't even provide a link.

You are a liar and a libeller.
 
You are correct, it happened on the 27th. Ergo your article is either incorrectly dated or using bogus information. If it can hapen at the NY Times, with AP, and Reuters it can certainly happen to a tiny periodical from Washington State. I do know that Barclay was there when it happened, which you do not seem to be focusing on or even realising.

You did not ask for a sourse, ergo why would I provide one. I believe poepl are capable of finding their own sources but if asked in a civil fashion, I do try and oblige. The problem here though is that you think calling a person liar in 4 successive posts and then accusing them of libel somehow will inspire them to do your bidding.

Frankly YMU I could not care less if YOU believe what I say. Facts are facts. She was there, she was deported because of it (gee, guess you did not consider that part), although she was also on pending Deportation order prior to that (probably why they booted her so quickly).

Oh, to top it off, that site you link to, "IF Americans Only Knew"? It is a Neo-Nazi site so there you go in a nutshell. "American Intifadeh," "Electronic Intifadeh," and "If Americans Only Knew." Greeeeeeat. And you have the audacity to insult? You know what they say about glass houses.

I am sure you will merely offer such a clever rebuttal, like,....."You are a liar!." It is your world, I am only trying to live in it.

I wonder though, and this is not posed to you but rhetorical, why people like you get excited enough to hurl insult after insult. Are you a Jew? An Arab? "Israeli? "Palestinian?" If not, perhaps you should get a bew hobby because this one surely does not seem to agree with you. Of course I am merely a "liar" and still I call it as I see it.

IF, and this is the key phrase/wprd, you actually want adult conversation, explain why she was deported.

"ISM went to the authorities.": Wrong again. Authorities went to them it should read. They are under constant surveillance and are heavily infiltrated. You must have never been to my nation. ISM would not have even had time to think about going if people who attended public functions of theirs turn up blowing up a disco and killing Israelis.
 
You are correct, it happened on the 27th. Ergo your article is either incorrectly dated or using bogus information. If it can hapen at the NY Times, with AP, and Reuters it can certainly happen to a tiny periodical from Washington State.

How convincing.

You're a liar. And a libeller.
 
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