Is Desmond Tutu a rabid hater of Jews?

[phildwyer]

No. You are incorrect. They have a maximum number of 'saved', and they must have converted (Messianic Jews i.e. Jews for Jesus and Christianised 'Jews') the remainder will perish in their Armageddon II

Wrong. The maximum number of saved includes *all* peoples. The vast majority of *all* peoples will perish in Armageddon. To suggest that Christians hope to see "the extermination of the Jewish people," as Nino did above, is misleading in the extreme. It implies that they have a Hitlerian project in mind, while of course nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[TAE]

Nonsense. They want to see the *conversion* of the Jews.

Quite right.

 

[tangentlama]

Wrong. The maximum number of saved includes *all* peoples. The vast majority of *all* peoples will perish in Armageddon. To suggest that Christians hope to see "the extermination of the Jewish people," as Nino did above, is misleading in the extreme. It implies that they have a Hitlerian project in mind, while of course nothing could be further from the truth.

We were not talking about Christians though. Nino mentioned how Christian Zionists "want to see the extermination of the Jewish people. Surely, you have heard of The Rapture?". I was responding to Nino's post about Christian Zionists. Nino's statement is correct. You are incorrect.

Christian Zionist *leader*, Pastor John Hagee's latest revelation is that the Antichrist is Jewish. Although Hagee is a zealous "supporter" of Israel, he remains one of the most public American anti-Semites. In his sermons, Hagee has identified the Antichrist as a 'homosexual Jew' (). In another sermon, Hagee claims that Hitler was doing G-d's work. This is anti-Semitism in it's classical form, and ranks among the anti-Semitic conspiracy-theories of David Duke and Henry Ford and Coughlin.

 

[rachamim18]

TAE: NOTHING I post is a secret even in the vaguest sense. Israel's LAws are pretty strict. For ecxample, I actually broek the law when I first joined this site and honestly told my name, my military infromation, and so on. I also dealt with the reprecusions. Infromation that I have posted is information that is within the public realm in one way or another before I even consider posting it. However, the public realm and a webpage asre not neccessarily synonymous.

I am nothing but a retired (equivalent of) captain in the Infantry. I am not with MFA,etc., etc., and so forth. I do have access to more facts than most but can only reveal what the govt allows revealed.

As for the "quote function," at this stage of my life I post how I feel like posting. I apologise if it hurts your eyes, etc., but you can always put me on Ignore.

"It is like at university, if you post a claim you post a source.": OHI see, I will be getting tangible credit then? nonsense of course. It is merely a meeting place of opinions and a whole lot of insulting. Generally speaking, when a person asks me in a civil manner, and I am able to do so somewhat easily, I DO provide sources. I have done so before but as a rule I would much rather have folks learn something instead of scaniing what I write and looking at it as a personal contest.

So you know, the MFA is not a secret organisation, it is merely the Foreign Ministry and is actually reponsible for official dissemination of information related to the nation.

Still, unless it is an official MFA release, I cannot post anything from it. If I soemhow become aware of something, I can only possibly provide it if it is already in the public realm, and again, that does not relegate it to cyberspace.


Nino: "Who is the whore.": Because it depends entirely on one's perspective. Christain Zionists believe all Jews must be ingathered before their Jesus can reappear and declare his heavenly kingdom.

We Zionists know that any non-Jewish support is worth more than a pittance.


And so we use one another, knowingly, and to a great amount of utility. It certainly presents much more value than the BS being propagated by the Presbyrterians ignoramuses

"The Rapture.": Sure, I am well versed in most forms of the Christain faith Nino, more than you might imagine. However, well I would tell you an old Ashkenaz folktale but it would bore you....Ahhh, heck with it, others might get a laugh:


In the Jewish villages of the Pale (Shtet'l of Galitzia) each village would pay a token payment to the slowest of its citizens, usually a brain damaged or retarded youth. His job was to watch the horizon for the appearance of Eliyahu (Elijah) who would herald in the Messiah. Many, tongue in cheek, would say it is the most stable job in the shtet'l...meaning that while many beliebve, most are also rather pragmatic.

Christains believe the Rapture will come, just not in their lifetime and this is how the world works. We Jews certainly share little with Christains in terms of outlook and belief and so if they want to sell their friendship, sell away. Cannot beat the price , so why not?

Better then what they usually do to us.

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: You take Hagee's comments way out of context. Jews believe Hitler was doing G-D's work in that everything, even evil, is from the Will of the Creator.Man are not instruments of this will, but products themselves of this will. I will not bore people with long tangets on Jewish theological reasoning but, safe to say, soemtimes there more than one to skin the cat.

Of course, if you believe in anti-Christ, that the anti-Christ will be Jewish since the whole theology of Christianity is rooted in the Jewish faith (in a perverted way).

 

[phildwyer]

Of course, if you believe in anti-Christ, that the anti-Christ will be Jewish

This isn't true, as Antichrist will be an apostate from Christianity. Protestants believe the Pope is Antichrist.

 

[phildwyer]

We were not talking about Christians though. Nino mentioned how Christian Zionists "want to see the extermination of the Jewish people. Surely, you have heard of The Rapture?". I was responding to Nino's post about Christian Zionists. Nino's statement is correct. You are incorrect.

No, the true situation is the reverse. Christian Zionists do not want to see "the extermination of the Jewish people." So Nino is wrong.

 

[Fruitloop]

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried

So a bit of both then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So a bit of both then.

If, of course, you happen to subscribe to the idea of prophecy and it's fulfilment.

 

[rachamim18]

Phil: Actually there is alot of debate as to what form he will take , but since Jews are considered Apostates in many a Christain mind it is perfectly logical. I have also heard the line about the Pope. Just depends. In the end maybe we will all be suprised.

It is my belief that they wish to see the Jews converted when Jesus finally appears...so yes, Nino does seem to have it wrong.

Actually I should be well up on it as I was studying Armageddon just last weekend, the 4 Horsemen,etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Phil: Actually there is alot of debate as to what form he will take , but since Jews are considered Apostates in many a Christain mind it is perfectly logical. I have also heard the line about the Pope. Just depends. In the end maybe we will all be suprised.

To be an apostate to Christianity, one must necessarily be or have been a Christian, as to be an apostate to a faith one must actually have professed that faith and later abandoned it.
Very few Jews, historically, have done so.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: "Who is the whore.": Because it depends entirely on one's perspective. Christain Zionists believe all Jews must be ingathered before their Jesus can reappear and declare his heavenly kingdom.

Sorry but I don't see the relevance of this particular metaphor and you've made things worse by going off at a tangent here.

We Zionists know that any non-Jewish support is worth more than a pittance.

Whatever.

And so we use one another, knowingly, and to a great amount of utility. It certainly presents much more value than the BS being propagated by the Presbyrterians ignoramuses

Sorry, you've lost me here.

"The Rapture.": Sure, I am well versed in most forms of the Christain faith Nino, more than you might imagine. However, well I would tell you an old Ashkenaz folktale but it would bore you....Ahhh, heck with it, others might get a laugh:

I'm not particularly interested or concerned by your self-declared expertise in all matters religious. There is no point to this paragraph other than to take the piss.

In the Jewish villages of the Pale (Shtet'l of Galitzia) each village would pay a token payment to the slowest of its citizens, usually a brain damaged or retarded youth. His job was to watch the horizon for the appearance of Eliyahu (Elijah) who would herald in the Messiah. Many, tongue in cheek, would say it is the most stable job in the shtet'l...meaning that while many beliebve, most are also rather pragmatic.

Relevance please.

Christains believe the Rapture will come, just not in their lifetime and this is how the world works. We Jews certainly share little with Christains in terms of outlook and belief and so if they want to sell their friendship, sell away. Cannot beat the price , so why not?

Better then what they usually do to us.

I think that rather depends on the strand of Xtianity, don't you?

 

[phildwyer]

Phil: Actually there is alot of debate as to what form he will take , but since Jews are considered Apostates in many a Christain mind it is perfectly logical. I have also heard the line about the Pope. Just depends. In the end maybe we will all be suprised.

It is my belief that they wish to see the Jews converted when Jesus finally appears...so yes, Nino does seem to have it wrong.

Actually I should be well up on it as I was studying Armageddon just last weekend, the 4 Horsemen,etc.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 describes the Antichrist as one:

"Who opposeth and exalteth himseft above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Sounds like the Pope to me.

 

[TAE]

That sounds like the pope to you?!

Protestants believe the Pope is Antichrist.

Erm, I don't, and many other protestants I know also don't.

 

[Bloody_ICE]

Desmon tutu doesn't look jewish, so i don't see why he should be pro israel really. Tutu has more pressing matters to attend to that interest him like africa.

 

[tangentlama]

Tangent: You take Hagee's comments way out of context.

Unfortunately I do not take Hagee's comments out of context.

Jews believe Hitler was doing G-D's work in that everything, even evil, is from the Will of the Creator.

We are not a monolithic bloc - no Jew I know, apart from YOU has ever claimed that Hitler was doing G-d's work.
A search for your claim on the internet brings up ST*RMFRONT, RENSE and HAGEE/FALWELL/DISPENSATIONALIST axis on the one hand, and declarations of the utter evil of Hitler in religious Jewish groups, who do not once claim that Hitler was doing 'G-d's work'.
http://www.google.com/search?&rls=en&q=hitler+doing+g-d's+work

Man are not instruments of this will, but products themselves of this will. I will not bore people with long tangets on Jewish theological reasoning

Whatever you find, I can also find the opposite to negate your skewed interpretation. I assure you, you will not bore me with theological reasoning.

Of course, if you believe in anti-Christ, that the anti-Christ will be Jewish since the whole theology of Christianity is rooted in the Jewish faith (in a perverted way).

Of course, I don't beleive in an anti-Christ, and nor do I believe in the Christian's Christ, but I have studied the Christian texts and there is nothing to suggest the Christian belief in this figure would manifest as being Jewish. To believe such is just a continuation of classical medieval antisemitism and there is no textual basis for their claims which are, in fact, political rather than theological.

Personally, historically and theologically, for John of Patmos writing of 'Revelation of St. John the Divine', I am going with the 'It was Nero' interpretation, rather than the Hal Lindsay/Tim LaHaye/Falwell/Hagee interpretation. Theirs is a dispensationalist interpretation that believes that ALL the world's Jews must return to Israel before 2/3rds of those ingathered in Israel will perish in a second 'auschwitz-style holocaust more terrifying than the WWII Holocaust against European minority religious, ethnic and social groups. They have been quoted as saying such, time and time again, and neither yours nor phildwyers protestations to the contrary are convincing given the weight of evidence that says otherwise.

 

[tangentlama]

Wrong. The maximum number of saved includes *all* peoples. The vast majority of *all* peoples will perish in Armageddon. To suggest that Christians hope to see "the extermination of the Jewish people," as Nino did above, is misleading in the extreme. It implies that they have a Hitlerian project in mind, while of course nothing could be further from the truth.

No, you are very very wrong. You seem to know nothing about Dispensationalism, Reconstructionism, and Dominionism and even less about the figures driving the militant fundamentalist Christian Zionist movement in America.

 

[nino_savatte]

No, you are very very wrong. You seem to know nothing about Dispensationalism, Reconstructionism, and Dominionism and even less about the figures driving the militant fundamentalist Christian Zionist movement in America.

Quite, our friend dwyer appears to have ignored some of the central points to the position of Xtian Zionists and the Rapture.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: "Apostates need to have professed a faith and then renounced it.": Yes, that too would be my definition but not everyone agrees with it. Orthadox Islamic theology claims that all infidels are apostates because Islam is the original faith of "Adam" and "Eve" and that anyone after the Revelation (to Muhammed) who does not then abide by the Revelation is an Apostate.

Similarly, some Christains believe that Jesus was on Earth to fufill the tenets of Judaism and that if a Jew does not abide by his teachings he or she is an apostate.

Just different ways of thinking. Jews believe your and my definition of the word.

"Very few Jews have done so.": Not true. I am sure you remember the "Lost Tribes"? As far as a formal renunciation or conversion there have been instances such as the Shabbatayeem who were offered Islam or the Sword by the Sublime Porte. When the followers saw their "Messiah" convert to Islam most promptly renounced their faith and converted as well. There are mny other cases but it is interesting how there has always been a core of believers in Judaisim that have kept it from falling to the wayside as one might expect after so many millenia.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: "Apostates need to have professed a faith and then renounced it.": Yes, that too would be my definition but not everyone agrees with it. Orthadox Islamic theology claims that all infidels are apostates because Islam is the original faith of "Adam" and "Eve" and that anyone after the Revelation (to Muhammed) who does not then abide by the Revelation is an Apostate.

Similarly, some Christains believe that Jesus was on Earth to fufill the tenets of Judaism and that if a Jew does not abide by his teachings he or she is an apostate.

Just different ways of thinking. Jews believe your and my definition of the word.

"Very few Jews have done so.": Not true. I am sure you remember the "Lost Tribes"? As far as a formal renunciation or conversion there have been instances such as the Shabbatayeem who were offered Islam or the Sword by the Sublime Porte. When the followers saw their "Messiah" convert to Islam most promptly renounced their faith and converted as well. There are mny other cases but it is interesting how there has always been a core of believers in Judaisim that have kept it from falling to the wayside as one might expect after so many millenia.

My point was that "very few Jews, historically, have done so". In the last two thousand years the proportion of the eternal people who have become Christian or Muslim, whether of their own free will or under coercion, is a very small proportion of our totality.

 

[phildwyer]

Quite, our friend dwyer appears to have ignored some of the central points to the position of Xtian Zionists and the Rapture.

Don't be an idiot Nino. You said that Christian Zionists hoped for "the extermination of the Jewish people." That is not true, and so you are wrong. Again.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: I have to disagree on that one, and it saddens me greatly. Over the last 2000 years assimilation has eaten away at the Jewish People and in the last 300 years it has been expanding incredibly rapidly.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: I have to disagree on that one, and it saddens me greatly. Over the last 2000 years assimilation has eaten away at the Jewish People and in the last 300 years it has been expanding incredibly rapidly.

We're not talking about assimilation or cultural dilution, I specifically mentioned only religious conversion in both of my earlier posts.

I'm not interested in your anti-assimilation sentiments. I know how you feel about assimilation. You made that quite clear when you accused me a few years ago of being "assimilationist scum".

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: "Rachamim called Panda an assimilationst scum.": Sorry but you are lying ont hat one. I do realise that it weas another poster , I believe Nino, who made that fantasy up. Not suprised that you picked up on his words though...although it IS sad.

I happily admit to hating assimilation. I despise it and think those Jews who do so are sad but would never call another poster "scum."

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: "Rachamim called Panda an assimilationst scum.": Sorry but you are lying ont hat one. I do realise that it weas another poster , I believe Nino, who made that fantasy up. Not suprised that you picked up on his words though...although it IS sad.

Nino made nothing up. I'm referring to a PM you sent me (part of a chain of PMs around the time you were enquiring about my family in Burma), not to anything posted on the boards.
It's instructive how you attempted to divert your reply into a smear of Nino, though. I have to say.

I happily admit to hating assimilation. I despise it and think those Jews who do so are sad but would never call another poster "scum."

I'm not lying, it's how I became aware of your attitudes toward assimilation.
So, either your memory is faulty or you are lying.

 

[nino_savatte]

I happily admit to hating assimilation. I despise it and think those Jews who do so are sad but would never call another poster "scum."

Yet, I'm willing to bet that you'd be one of the first to claim that Muslims need to assimilate into their country of residence if 'we' are to defeat 'terror' (sic).

 

[rachamim18]

Panda.": Rachamim having called Panda an "Assimilationist scum" some years ago. the answer to your supposition of whether I am lying or posess a faulty memory is NEITHER. I never sad it. Of course it should be oh so simple to prove it, right?

At least that was what I was told after honestly stating that "Grandma" had made a rather (more than usual) atrocious remark concerning a family member of mine. I was told that all threads are avilable for perusal and that it is rather simple to find an offending post.


So...this would mean that you should be able to very simply prove what you claim and at the same time make me look incredibly stupid. I am sure that the latter is irresistable to you . Hmmm...


"The comment was made in a PM.": So now, just so as I do not misunderstand you, you are saying that I called you this in a
PM? How would Nino EVER know this? Furthermore, I communicate with a good many posters via PM and I have never, EVER called another poster such a name. It is not me as a person. I have neither the inclination nor the habit.

Since it is a PM I am sure that you will offer a rebuttal consisting of an explantion stating that it was long ago erased, why would you hold onto an insulting PM from of all people, Rachamim? Etc...the thing is, nothing is ever lost in cyberspace. Perhaps the Mods can help you in retrieving it.

See, I will call foul. It never happened. What is more, what would it ever have to do with a threadthen or now? Nino has apprently succeeded in drawing me into this nonsense yet again.

"Diversion.": There goes the memory again Panda. You seem to have forgitten that it was Nino who introduced that subject matter into this thread.Mentioning this FACT is not trying to divert anything. It is simply a fact. Do facts distress you?

I give him a credit though, he did it in a very underhanded manner. Instead of an outright insult of me he ionstead claims I did so with regard to a 3rd poster and that it was a long time ago. Whatever. For the sake of this forum I will not respond to this subject manner again UNLESS you produce the supposed email,etc.

Nino: "Nino bets Rachamim would adamantly state that Muslims must assimilate into their natins of residence if the West is to ever defeat the spectre of terrorism.": Stop trying to guess what I would or would not do.

I do not believe ANYONE should EVER assimilate. I enjoy all cultures although I certainly disagree with many things in both the faith of Islam as well as in some of the cultures various Muslims exist in.

If you really want to think, you might remember that almost all the 9/11 Bombers were quite assimilated. They reverted to the faith of their families, etc. but still continued to live amongst non-Muslims.

Terrorism has nothing to do with culture's assimilation and all to do with conveinent rationalisations. If an Arab Muslim assimilates or becomes an Iman and holds Juma every week nothing will be decided one way or the other.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: "Nino bets Rachamim would adamantly state that Muslims must assimilate into their natins of residence if the West is to ever defeat the spectre of terrorism.": Stop trying to guess what I would or would not do.

I do not believe ANYONE should EVER assimilate. I enjoy all cultures although I certainly disagree with many things in both the faith of Islam as well as in some of the cultures various Muslims exist in.

If you really want to think, you might remember that almost all the 9/11 Bombers were quite assimilated. They reverted to the faith of their families, etc. but still continued to live amongst non-Muslims.

Terrorism has nothing to do with culture's assimilation and all to do with conveinent rationalisations. If an Arab Muslim assimilates or becomes an Iman and holds Juma every week nothing will

This completely contradicts your assertions elsewhere.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda.": Rachamim having called Panda an "Assimilationist scum" some years ago. the answer to your supposition of whether I am lying or posess a faulty memory is NEITHER. I never sad it. Of course it should be oh so simple to prove it, right?

What, you expect me to have kept a PM from 2004-2005 or so, even if one of the mods hadn't borkled the PMs?

At least that was what I was told after honestly stating that "Grandma" had made a rather (more than usual) atrocious remark concerning a family member of mine. I was told that all threads are avilable for perusal and that it is rather simple to find an offending post.

It wasn't a post, as I've already stated at least twice.

So...this would mean that you should be able to very simply prove what you claim and at the same time make me look incredibly stupid. I am sure that the latter is irresistable to you . Hmmm...

Here's a clue, fool: PMs (private messages) don't come up on any search because they're...that's right... personal.

"The comment was made in a PM.": So now, just so as I do not misunderstand you, you are saying that I called you this in a
PM? How would Nino EVER know this? Furthermore, I communicate with a good many posters via PM and I have never, EVER called another poster such a name. It is not me as a person. I have neither the inclination nor the habit.

Are you moonstruck?
I've already explained that Nino has nothing to do with this, except perhaps in some delusion of yours, and your claims that you'd never say something like that are meaningless against the fact that you did do so.

Since it is a PM I am sure that you will offer a rebuttal consisting of an explantion stating that it was long ago erased, why would you hold onto an insulting PM from of all people, Rachamim? Etc...the thing is, nothing is ever lost in cyberspace. Perhaps the Mods can help you in retrieving it.

I would have held onto it, but a certain moderator accidentally deleted most people's PM boxes a few years back. Rather inconvenient for me because it stops me from proving what an insidious liar you are.

See, I will call foul. It never happened. What is more, what would it ever have to do with a threadthen or now? Nino has apprently succeeded in drawing me into this nonsense yet again.

You can "call" whatever you want. It doesn't change reality, even if you succeed in convincing yourself of your virtue.

"Diversion.": There goes the memory again Panda. You seem to have forgitten that it was Nino who introduced that subject matter into this thread.Mentioning this FACT is not trying to divert anything. It is simply a fact. Do facts distress you?

He introduced the (in your own word) subject, not the fact of your name-calling on the issue. There's a palpable difference.

I give him a credit though, he did it in a very underhanded manner. Instead of an outright insult of me he ionstead claims I did so with regard to a 3rd poster and that it was a long time ago. Whatever. For the sake of this forum I will not respond to this subject manner again UNLESS you produce the supposed email,etc.

You don't have to respond. You've chosen to respond because you are attempting to convince people that you wouldn't act in the way that you did act.
By the way, to reiterate yet again, it wasn't an "e-mail", it wasn't a "post", it was a PM.

E2A: I generally only keep PMs that have addresses and the like in them, certainly not PMs with abuse in them. Those I tend to delete, because the content generally proves that the sender isn't worth engaging with.

 

[Grandma Death]

At least that was what I was told after honestly stating that "Grandma" had made a rather (more than usual) atrocious remark concerning a family member of mine.

Oh please do stop peddling this lie-like you its getting tedious in the extreme