Is Desmond Tutu a rabid hater of Jews?

[rachamim18]

Nino: "Nothing in the text to suggest Tutu is an 'anti-Semite'.": I NEVER claimed he was n "anti-Semite!!!" I said he was an "anti-Jew." BIG difference.

You do not think comparing several peaceful Jewish organisations to Nazis is not an attack? Interesting viewpoint Nino.

I was going to recommend that you read the 89 speech but then, in retrospect, I do not think it would matter to you so why even ask?

"Rachamim's previous posts in contradictory to posts he has made elsewhere.": OK, of course you would not bother to tell us how and certainly never describe the threads,etc. Just a criticism and then "over and out." Thanks for taking the time, but please, do not put yourself out next time.

Panda: "Does Rachamim really expect Panda to save a PM from years ago?": NOT AT ALL. I was proving a point which you illustrated perfectly.

However, AGAIN, you are either mistaken or lying. It NEVER happened. I would imagine I MIGHT get more worked up over your previously constant hauranging over semantics rather than your making a personal choice to assimilate. Yet, to date and it is almost half a decade, I have never used such a label to anyone here let alone you. I find it most curious that you would make a statement like you have but in the end not curious enough to lose sleep over it.

"Nino has nothing to do with it.": Then why did you originally bring his name up? Look, whatever. This has nothing at all to do with anything other than more criticism of me and I would rather get to real subject matter. Have fun in your PMs (as apparently you are) and leave me out of it, ok?

 

[Grandma Death]

However, AGAIN, you are either mistaken or lying. It NEVER happened

Yes so did the 'You called my mother a cunt' claim you still keep insisting on posting, despite the mods pulling you up about it and me clearly showing it to be untrue.

So were you mistaking or were you just lying? Wait....don't answer that I think we already know the answer to that one....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: "Does Rachamim really expect Panda to save a PM from years ago?": NOT AT ALL. I was proving a point which you illustrated perfectly.

However, AGAIN, you are either mistaken or lying. It NEVER happened.

It happened.

I would imagine I MIGHT get more worked up over your previously constant hauranging over semantics rather than your making a personal choice to assimilate.

This was three+ years ago, before you started playing the victim over being supposedly "constantly harangued over semantics", Rachamim.
Try again.

Yet, to date and it is almost half a decade, I have never used such a label to anyone here let alone you. I find it most curious that you would make a statement like you have but in the end not curious enough to lose sleep over it.

You don't find it curious at all, Rachamim, you aren't honest enough to do so.

"Nino has nothing to do with it.": Then why did you originally bring his name up?

I didn't. You did.
You said (in post # 234 on this very page, in case you can stir your arse to read it) "...I do realise that it weas another poster , I believe Nino, who made that fantasy up".

Look, whatever. This has nothing at all to do with anything other than more criticism of me and I would rather get to real subject matter. Have fun in your PMs (as apparently you are) and leave me out of it, ok?

I'll do what I want, within the remit of the site's FAQs, and if what I want is to tell people that you're lying when you say you didn't send me a PM in which you called me "assimilationist scum", I'll do that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes so did the 'You called my mother a cunt' claim you still keep insisting on posting, despite the mods pulling you up about it and me clearly showing it to be untrue.

So were you mistaking or were you just lying? Wait....don't answer that I think we already know the answer to that one....

Indeed we do.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: "Nothing in the text to suggest Tutu is an 'anti-Semite'.": I NEVER claimed he was n "anti-Semite!!!" I said he was an "anti-Jew." BIG difference.

You do not think comparing several peaceful Jewish organisations to Nazis is not an attack? Interesting viewpoint Nino.

I was going to recommend that you read the 89 speech but then, in retrospect, I do not think it would matter to you so why even ask?

"Rachamim's previous posts in contradictory to posts he has made elsewhere.": OK, of course you would not bother to tell us how and certainly never describe the threads,etc. Just a criticism and then "over and out." Thanks for taking the time, but please, do not put yourself out next time.

Now you're backsliding and it's funny to watch. Have you now expunged the word "anti-Semite" from your vocabulary? "Anti-Jew" and "anti-Semite" are one and the same thing in this context. You and your selective love of semantics.

Where did I "compare[ing] several peaceful Jewish organisations to Nazis?" You're making things up again.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: Again, a rather long post (for you anyway) and it is nothing but insults, top to bottom. Sad. Again, you are wrong but believe what you will. No matter what one can say about me here noone can claim I ever use expoletives or call such derogatory names. "Scum?" Absolute and utter nonsense.

If you bother, you or anyone else, you will see that I actually go out of my way NOT to do such things. Anyway, I have fed into this far too long in any regard and unless you produce it I will not respond. Enough wasted time.

Nino: Aside from your insults, as usual, I have never used the word "anti-Semtie." Unlike Panda's fatasist claims about PMs, you can not hide by saying they are expunged. IF I ever used the phrase, you will be able to show us where. Do so, or stop arguing for the sake of arguin - at least with me. AGAIN: Real subject matter Nino.

"Semantics.": No, not at all. Semties are a sub-grouping in terms of anthropological race. Jews are but one group within this grouping. Arabs are just as Semitic as any Jew. Ergo, what sense does it make to call soemone an "anti-Semite" UNLESS they hate Jews AND Arabs?

Comparing Jewish organisations to Nazis.": Keep on track Nino. It referred to Tutu, REMEMBER? THE THREAD'S ACTUAL SUBJECT? He said it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: Again, a rather long post (for you anyway) and it is nothing but insults, top to bottom.

Really, I thought it contained some apposite information, such as thoroughly rebutting your claim that I mentioned Nino, rather than you.

Sad. Again, you are wrong but believe what you will.

I'm not talking about believing anything, I'm stating a truth.

No matter what one can say about me here noone can claim I ever use expoletives or call such derogatory names. "Scum?" Absolute and utter nonsense.

I haven't said you've used expletives, I've merely stated the truth: that you called me "assimilationist scum".

If you bother, you or anyone else, you will see that I actually go out of my way NOT to do such things. Anyway, I have fed into this far too long in any regard and unless you produce it I will not respond. Enough wasted time.

You may have wasted your time, I don't believe I've wasted mine.
For someone who labels me a "fantasist" you appear to have only a vague grasp of even the reality on the page before you (with reference to your easily refuted in post # 243 "Nino" claims).

 

[nino_savatte]

.

Nino: Aside from your insults, as usual, I have never used the word "anti-Semtie." Unlike Panda's fatasist claims about PMs, you can not hide by saying they are expunged. IF I ever used the phrase, you will be able to show us where. Do so, or stop arguing for the sake of arguin - at least with me. AGAIN: Real subject matter Nino.

"Semantics.": No, not at all. Semties are a sub-grouping in terms of anthropological race. Jews are but one group within this grouping. Arabs are just as Semitic as any Jew. Ergo, what sense does it make to call soemone an "anti-Semite" UNLESS they hate Jews AND Arabs?

Comparing Jewish organisations to Nazis.": Keep on track Nino. It referred to Tutu, REMEMBER? THE THREAD'S ACTUAL SUBJECT? He said it.

What "insults"? You cry the word "insults" at the drop of a hat! I know why you do it too: you can't deal with the points put to you, so you claim that you've been "insulted". How old did you say you were? Because 5 year olds would use that as a defence. Pathetic.

You're playing semantics as well as making things up. Which "Jewish organisation" did I compare to Nazis? Come on, either quote the post or shut the fuck up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"Shut the fuck up"?

Unlikely from Mr "got to have the last word", don't you think?

 

[nino_savatte]

"Shut the fuck up"?

Unlikely from Mr "got to have the last word", don't you think?

Sad but true, ami.

 

[rachamim18]

For a second I thought you were talking to me since my last name is Ben Ami. Then I realised you have a thing for French.

In any event, might as well offer a partial list...How we know Tutu is a Jew Hater...

I) Compares the American Jewish Lobby to Idi Amin, Milosevic, Stalin, and of course, Hitler. 2002. Speech made as a patron of the "Friends of Sabeel," a "Palestinian" Christian organisation. Speech was entitled "Occupation is Oppression" and given in Boston, Massachusets, USA at Old South Church.

II) Says Zionism has many parallels to racism. 1988. Made in comments to an interviewer from the American Jewish Committee, published, among other places, in the 1988 Jewish Year Book.

III) Says Jews monopolise the Holocaust. 1985The 7/26/85 edition of the Jerusalem Post.

IV) Says Jews are arrogant (his exact word) because they have a powerful lobby. 1989. In the Jewish Telegraphic Agency's "Daily News Bulletin" in reference to comments he publicly made in S. Africa.

V) Urged Jews to forget Nazis. 1989. He made this ridiculous admonishment , unblievably at Yad Vahsem which is the Israeli Holocaust Memorial and Muesum. The speech was broadcast all over Israel, heard it myself, and was also reported in the Simon Weisenthal Center's "Response" magazine in 1/90.

VI) Said it is "Tough luck if I am considered anti-Semitic." 1989. Remarks were made during the aofre mentioned trip to Israel, reproted widely and published in the same issue (as #V) of "Reponse."

VII) When pointedly asked IF he was an anti-Semtie, he rplied, "My dentist is Dr. Cohen." As Nino says, I cannot make this up. Just too precious. 1989. Made during the same trip to Israel, also reported in "Response" among other media sources.

VIII) In a church sermon no less, he offered, "The Jews thought they had a monopoloy on G-D. Jesus was angry that they could shut out other human beigns." 1984. The church was in Hartford, Conneticut, USA. Reported in the "Hartford Courant" newspaper in the 10/29/84 edition.

IX) In that same church sermon he offered , among other things, that the Jews' Temple was akin to S. Africa Apartheid, "Jews should be judged by a different standard "(actual words, not paraphrased ), and my personal fave, "Jews are a peculiar People."

X) In the 1980s, whenever conversing with Israel's Ambassador to S. Africa, Aliyahu Larkin, he refused to pronounce the word "Israel" and always refered to the Jewish State as "Palestine."

So, I think it is quite, quite clear that he not only hates Israel but also hates Jews. I should add though that I always give respect where I find it deserving and Tutu offered in that referenced 2002 Boston speech that "anti-Semtisim" is a ridiculous term. He offered that it should be called "Anti-Jewish." I of course agree on that one.

 

[nino_savatte]

More lies and I note that there is no source cited. If you expect people to take you seriously, you should cite your sources or be forever called an inveterate liar.

 

[Grandma Death]

For a second I thought you were talking to me since my last name is Ben Ami. Then I realised you have a thing for French.

In any event, might as well offer a partial list...How we know Tutu is a Jew Hater...

I) Compares the American Jewish Lobby to Idi Amin, Milosevic, Stalin, and of course, Hitler. 2002. Speech made as a patron of the "Friends of Sabeel," a "Palestinian" Christian organisation. Speech was entitled "Occupation is Oppression" and given in Boston, Massachusets, USA at Old South Church.

II) Says Zionism has many parallels to racism. 1988. Made in comments to an interviewer from the American Jewish Committee, published, among other places, in the 1988 Jewish Year Book.

III) Says Jews monopolise the Holocaust. 1985The 7/26/85 edition of the Jerusalem Post.

IV) Says Jews are arrogant (his exact word) because they have a powerful lobby. 1989. In the Jewish Telegraphic Agency's "Daily News Bulletin" in reference to comments he publicly made in S. Africa.

V) Urged Jews to forget Nazis. 1989. He made this ridiculous admonishment , unblievably at Yad Vahsem which is the Israeli Holocaust Memorial and Muesum. The speech was broadcast all over Israel, heard it myself, and was also reported in the Simon Weisenthal Center's "Response" magazine in 1/90.

VI) Said it is "Tough luck if I am considered anti-Semitic." 1989. Remarks were made during the aofre mentioned trip to Israel, reproted widely and published in the same issue (as #V) of "Reponse."

VII) When pointedly asked IF he was an anti-Semtie, he rplied, "My dentist is Dr. Cohen." As Nino says, I cannot make this up. Just too precious. 1989. Made during the same trip to Israel, also reported in "Response" among other media sources.

VIII) In a church sermon no less, he offered, "The Jews thought they had a monopoloy on G-D. Jesus was angry that they could shut out other human beigns." 1984. The church was in Hartford, Conneticut, USA. Reported in the "Hartford Courant" newspaper in the 10/29/84 edition.

IX) In that same church sermon he offered , among other things, that the Jews' Temple was akin to S. Africa Apartheid, "Jews should be judged by a different standard "(actual words, not paraphrased ), and my personal fave, "Jews are a peculiar People."

X) In the 1980s, whenever conversing with Israel's Ambassador to S. Africa, Aliyahu Larkin, he refused to pronounce the word "Israel" and always refered to the Jewish State as "Palestine."

So, I think it is quite, quite clear that he not only hates Israel but also hates Jews. I should add though that I always give respect where I find it deserving and Tutu offered in that referenced 2002 Boston speech that "anti-Semtisim" is a ridiculous term. He offered that it should be called "Anti-Jewish." I of course agree on that one.

Links?

 

[TAE]

I wonder if rachamim18 really has the 10/29/84 edition of the "Hartford Courant" newspaper.

 

[rachamim18]

TAE: DO I have a physical copy? Nope. Saw it on micro fiche. It is old news (no pun intendeed). I have talked about most of the things but Grandma, et al love lists, and I did agree to make one so there it is.

Grandma: Links? I am sure you more than capable of finding such links. These things are very widely reported although I do not doubt for a second that you would never hear of them on the sites you seem to frequent. However, if you just try and use a search engine with the relevant info I have provided you will more likely than not find such links very easily.

Myself? I do not view this as some sort of intellectual contest. I offered my opinion. You obviously challenged it and asked me to show where why I believe this opinion. I took my time but in the end showed you just why I think this way. IF you wish to verify the info I have provided, you can easily do so. To ask me to verify my own info is kind of silly since it involves my own opinion.

I listed dates, as well as all relevant info such as publications, editions, and so on. I think, given the info most rational people would readily agree that he is a Jew Hater but to each their own. You are certainly more than entitled to your opinion.

 

[Grandma Death]

Grandma: Links? I am sure you more than capable of finding such links. These things are very widely reported although I do not doubt for a second that you would never hear of them on the sites you seem to frequent. However, if you just try and use a search engine with the relevant info I have provided you will more likely than not find such links very easily. .

Oh hang on-we've been here before haven't we. Its sounding very familiar.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=244544

 

[Grandma Death]

To ask me to verify my own info is kind of silly since it involves my own opinion.

Qualify just three of those 'points' you have made. Go on....I double dare you. They are after all 'widely reported'. If you do I shall publicly apologise on this forum-can't say fairer than that can I.

 

[Spymaster]

Oh hang on-we've been here before haven't we. Its sounding very familiar.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=244544

What an appalling thread. You seem obsessed with Rachamim, Granny .

Just stick him on ignore, ffs.

 

[TAE]

Sticking him on ignore just means that someone else has to deal with his claims.

 

[TAE]

By the way, none of the 10 points raised there would convince me that Tutu is anti-semitic, just that he is a bit annoyed with the way the israelis treat the palestinians and with the way the israelis justify that treatment.

 

[rachamim18]

Granny: Personally I could not care what you imagine me to be. I provided the list out of a desire for rational people to see Tutu for what he is but in the end it is my own opinion. I really do not trouble myself with trying to make you see the light. Should I actually provide you with 3 links what will hapopen? You will apologise? I do not need your apology. I am sure it would not change your line of thinking one iota and would jsut be another wasted effort on my part. So, do what you like. you aksed, I provided , and there it is for you to do with what you will.

TAE: Actually, I have asked Granny and a couple of others to put me on Ignore for quite soemt ime. While I do not feel I would ever put a person on Ignore, I feel that those posters who find themselves so disturbed by me to the point of them disrupting other thread and even iniating threads calling for my banning would themselves be btter off just leaving me be.


As for your feelings on Tutu after seeing the list, that of course is YOUR opinion and you are certainly free to think what you want. I do not see how calling Jews a "peculiar People" would be anti-Israel. I do not see how talking about Jesus rejecting Jews, etc. is anti -Israel either but of course I respect your right to think whatever you want.

Jews are arrogant? Monopolosie the Holocaust? Tough luck? Dr. Cohen? You certainly have a unique way of looking at it but more power to you...

 

[nino_savatte]

Sticking him on ignore just means that someone else has to deal with his claims.

Exactly, ignoring him will ultimately give him the freedom to continue to post up reams of propaganda, lies and disinformation.

 

[nino_savatte]

Granny: Personally I could not care what you imagine me to be. I provided the list out of a desire for rational people to see Tutu for what he is but in the end it is my own opinion. I really do not trouble myself with trying to make you see the light. Should I actually provide you with 3 links what will hapopen? You will apologise? I do not need your apology. I am sure it would not change your line of thinking one iota and would jsut be another wasted effort on my part. So, do what you like. you aksed, I provided , and there it is for you to do with what you will.

TAE: Actually, I have asked Granny and a couple of others to put me on Ignore for quite soemt ime. While I do not feel I would ever put a person on Ignore, I feel that those posters who find themselves so disturbed by me to the point of them disrupting other thread and even iniating threads calling for my banning would themselves be btter off just leaving me be.


As for your feelings on Tutu after seeing the list, that of course is YOUR opinion and you are certainly free to think what you want. I do not see how calling Jews a "peculiar People" would be anti-Israel. I do not see how talking about Jesus rejecting Jews, etc. is anti -Israel either but of course I respect your right to think whatever you want.

Jews are arrogant? Monopolosie the Holocaust? Tough luck? Dr. Cohen? You certainly have a unique way of looking at it but more power to you...

You still haven't managed to support your libellous claims with anything resembling facts.

 

[Spymaster]

Sticking him on ignore just means that someone else has to deal with his claims.

Well I don't see you "dealing with his claims" here. Along with a couple of others you're just shouting "liar, liar pants on fire" and getting fucking nowhere.

Nobody on this board is under any obligation to provide proof of assertions, they never have been. So why don't you disprove what Rachamim has to say with researched rebuttals if it bothers you that much?

At the moment, yourself, Granny and silly Nino are no more than junk yard dogs, yapping at his ankles!

 

[Grandma Death]

What an appalling thread. You seem obsessed with Rachamim, Granny .

Ive tried debating with him SM. He wriggled consistently for 18 months on three issues.....and since that time he has again wriggled, lied and made up ad homs (despite the mods speaking to him)......if you think sticking him on ignore is the way to deal with his shortcomings then I'm surprised at you SM.

 

[Grandma Death]

At the moment, yourself, Granny and silly Nino are no more than junk yard dogs, yapping at his ankles!

SM I know you have a bee in your bonnet about this. Who knows perhaps you like sticking up for the underdog.....but I really think you cant see the forrest for the trees on this one.

 

[Grandma Death]

Well I don't see you "dealing with his claims" here.

SM...I now know you clearly havent read the body of his work on this forum.

 

[Grandma Death]

Granny: Personally I could not care what you imagine me to be.

You dont care much for anybody that chalenges you do you Rach. Nino, Garf, Violent Panda (especially VP given the abusive PM you sent him), Laptop etc etc.

I provided the list out of a desire for rational people to see Tutu for what he is but in the end it is my own opinion.

What you have provided is words...no links to back them up. Which for you is the norm. If you want people to debate with you do so more openly. Its taken two threads on Tutu and pages and pages of requests by several posters for this list. What you have provided means nothing.

Once again I repeat-you made a statement that Tutu was a 'hater of jews' and posters pulled you up on this. You've forced yourself into a corner and you've provided nothing except a handful of words.

TAE: Actually, I have asked Granny and a couple of others to put me on Ignore for quite soemt ime. While I do not feel I would ever put a person on Ignore, I feel that those posters who find themselves so disturbed by me to the point of them disrupting other thread and even iniating threads calling for my banning would themselves be btter off just leaving me be.

Be gone with your lies.

 

[Spymaster]

Ive tried debating with him SM. He wriggled consistently for 18 months on three issues.....and since that time he has again wriggled, lied and made up ad homs (despite the mods speaking to him)......if you think sticking him on ignore is the way to deal with his shortcomings then I'm surprised at you SM.

I saw that. It's clear to me that Rachamim was wrong on those points. It also seems clear that rather than outright lies, Rachamim himself was misinformed as there is scope for confusion of the facts as was pointed out by Cyberose.

Great.

Job done.

Move on.

You can hardly expect him to genuflect and provide a written apology given the way he's treated here!

SM I know you have a bee in your bonnet about this. Who knows perhaps you like sticking up for the underdog......

Yeah I do Granny. I've stayed out of it thus far because I don't agree with a lot of Rach's positions.

But let's face it, this is one of the most anti-zionist, one-sided, pro-Palestinian sites on the web. The lefty love-fest with the Palestinian cause rampages unchecked across these boards with no balance or opposing opinion allowed representation without an immediate slew of "cunt, pig-fucker, murderer, motherfucker" aimed at it's provider.

 

[Grandma Death]

I saw that. It's clear to me that Rachamim was wrong on those points. It also seems clear that rather than outright lies, Rachamim himself was misinformed as there is scope for confusion of the facts as was pointed out by Cyberose.

Rubbish. He had every opportunity to admit he was wrong. Instead he insisted the evidence was readily avaliable and he would provide it in time. He made several promises then he flounced from the board (twice) hoping it would go away. Then he argued that I called his mother a c**t and that was why he would not be providing the evidence. Despite being pulled up about it by myself and the mods he still insists this is the case.

This pattern is common and not unique to me. He uses the same methods when pressed by other posters (not just on this forum either! He's flounced from another board I use)....

Nobody is expecting a written apology. What posters like myself expect is for hism to cross reference his 'facts' before posting and provide credible links. Running way from that very basic request during open and honest debate frustrates people-and not just me.

Yeah I do Granny. I've stayed out of it thus far because I don't agree with a lot of Rach's positions.

Good then start debating with him-then you'll know exactly where I and others are coming from.

But let's face it, this is one of the most anti-zionist, one-sided, pro-Palestinian sites on the web.

Totally disagree with that.