Is Desmond Tutu a rabid hater of Jews?

[Grandma Death]

Seriously, can you stop your disruption please? We were having a decent conversation before you turned up.

You're really taken by me aren't you phil? Its ok....I know you have some deep seated issues going on in that mind of yours-but really...I'm not interested in feeding your ego-go find someone else to bother there's a good lad. Either that or start one of your lesbo threads-you obviously get a real kick from them.

 

[editor]

I appreciate your interest in my views, but let's remember that this thread is not about me but about the issues. Either stick to them or do not bother.

Perhaps you might follow your own advice in this regard?

 

[Spion]

50 years seems about right.

Why pluck that figure out of the air? That would mean we should have stopped remembering the nazi holocaust and any compensation cases related to it should have lapsed in 1995?. IMO, if there are living people (or descendants thereof who can make a viable claim) who have suffered ethnic cleansing and demonstrable theft of land and property then they have a case for some kind of settlement

Indeed I do. The history of the Jews is unique in every regard.

I fail to see why, and you have failed to demonstrate why.

I appreciate your interest in my views, but let's remember that this thread is not about me but about the issues. Either stick to them or do not bother.

I only draw attention to your view because you claim to oppose Israel's abuses in the post-67 lands. If you are serious about your belief in a 2 state settlement based on the 67 borders I'd expect you to argue against Israel's illegal activities in those lands. That you haven't uttered a single word on the subject makes me think you're just here for the ad homs and the fun of winding people up

 

[Grandma Death]

That you haven't uttered a single word on the subject makes me think you're just here for the ad homs and the fun of winding people up

Indeed.

 

[phildwyer]

I fail to see why

So I've noticed, and I think this is the crux of the matter. The list of the ways in which the Jews constitute a unique case is long indeed, but I suppose I might begin by pointing to the seminal role of their religion, the closely-related seminal role of their economic activity, and the equally closely-related ubiquity of anti-semitism throughout the ages. Can you point to any people who have suffered persecution on a similar scale over a similar historical period? Can you point to any people who occupy a similar role in the foundation of world religion or the world economy?

 

[Fruitloop]

The Roma have had a pretty rough time of it. They aren't at the epicentre of religious bunkum though, if that's really important to you.

 

[Spion]

So I've noticed, and I think this is the crux of the matter. The list of the ways in which the Jews constitute a unique case is long indeed, but I suppose I might begin by pointing to the seminal role of their religion, the closely-related seminal role of their economic activity, and the equally closely-related ubiquity of anti-semitism throughout the ages. Can you point to any people who have suffered persecution on a similar scale over a similar historical period? Can you point to any people who occupy a similar role in the foundation of world religion or the world economy?

A. This is worryingly similar to the 'world jewish conspiracy' idea, but turned on its head.
B. It's equally as spurious as the idea of such a common cause and of a so-called chosen people. It's anti-semitism's brother, but wearing a less obviously cheap suit.
C. At the same time it demonstrates a paradigm in which individuals are classed collectively by ethnic group, a la Nazi Germany, apartheid South Africa
D. As such it is no basis for the determination of justice in the political and social domain. Grievances and any subsequent settlements of injustice should be clearly demonstrable by individuals and their families, not on the basis of an entire ethnicity being 'chosen'.

 

[tangentlama]

On being 'chosen' - it is only militant fundamentalist Protestestants (Millenarian dispensationalist Christian Zionists) who bang on about our being 'chosen'.

Simply, we're chosen by them to participate in Armageddon II, after which only a small portion of those Jews who became Jews-for-Jesus will be saved, and the rest of us Jews will perish, allowing the CZ's to gain control of Jerusalem and this militant form of Christianity has certainly murdered the greatest number of Jews over since Medieval times, both in Europe and in the Middle East. Their attempts to separate us from our Arab brothers and sisters has been uppermost in their mind and have us cleave in our fear to their so-called 'protection'. It is a ruse - it works because they use fear to drive us to their insincere bosom, the milk of their kindness is bitter to taste and they are warmongers who seek to separate us from our historic allies.

That, and the old US Cold War fear that Russia would rise in the middle east via Israel and surrounding nations. This militant "Judeo-Christian alliance" stinks to the highest heaven.

To answer the OP - NO. Tutu is not a rabid hater of Jews. The ZOA (Zionist Organisation of America - headed by Morton Klein) published a fraudulent quote of Tutu: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2007/10/04/jta-publishes-zoa-fraudulent-tutu-quote/ which was picked up by other news agencies. The fraudulent quote has been thoroughly refuted and Morton Klein has no more space on his face for any more egg.

 

[Spion]

Phil's already kindly informed us of his approval of that little schema

I believe events in the middle east to be directed by a Providential design on the basis of Biblical prophecy which will culminate in Armageddon.

 

[tangentlama]

Phil's already kindly informed us of his approval of that little schema

Yes, I did notice. The fatalistic and false belief whereby he himself knows better than The Almighty makes me wonder if he harbours other fantastical delusions of grandeur. For the religious among you, "Beware of false prophets" is my advice. This goes especially to phildwyer.

 

[Malamud]

Phil's already kindly informed us of his approval of that little schema

He informed us of his belief, (which I don't share), not his approval.

 

[Spion]

He informed us of his belief, (which I don't share), not his approval.

If he believes it he approves of it as a description of reality.

Why not attack that idea instead of having a go at me, unless you're happy to see people propogate the idea that peace in unattainable?

 

[Malamud]

If he believes it he approves of it as a description of reality.

Why not attack that idea instead of having a go at me, unless you're happy to see people propogate the idea that peace in unattainable?

Your first sentence makes no sense to me, I'm afraid.
Your second is clearly nonsense as I've made no attempt to 'have a go at you'.

 

[Spion]

Your first sentence makes no sense to me, I'm afraid.

Try reading it slowly?

Your second is clearly nonsense as I've made no attempt to 'have a go at you'.

You attempted to correct my reading of Phil's relationship to the return of the Jews/Armageddon idea, but have not taken on the substance of that idea, despite your avowed disapproval. Why is that?

 

[tangentlama]

Your first sentence makes no sense to me, I'm afraid.

Shame on you that you could never live up to your namesake, who was a genius of literature, whilst your own character comes across as an ill-informed picker of nits - no wonder you're afraid.

No point in replying to these types of exchanges - it wastes valuable debate and fact time

 

[tangentlama]

Try reading it slowly?

You attempted to correct my reading of Phil's relationship to the return of the Jews/Armageddon idea, but have not taken on the substance of that idea, despite your avowed disapproval. Why is that?

It's really not so worth it to argue. Let me tangent with this: The Fixer, by Bernard Malamud.

Then let's get back to the thread.

Tutu has not ever said that Hitler was doing G-d's work - but militant fundamentalist Protestant Christian "Zionist" Pastor Hagee (Tx) has said so.

Evangelicals have made statements to separate themselves from this militant fundamentalist "Christianity" with a statement very recently. (Scarequotes added since this Armageddon II sentiment of Hagee's Christian "Zionism" is not resonant with Beatitudinal Christian tenets).

It is laughable to focus on Tutu, when Hagee is the real antisemite. He loves Jews to death, does Hagee, because we fulfill his prophecies (not shared by all Christians). He is busy funding the removal (or is it ethnic cleansing?) of Jews from USA to fulfill his prophecies.

Do we look Hagee's gift horse in the mouth? Sure, and we should destroy the Trojan that it represents.

 

[meems]

bluestreak posting

Well we wouldn't want the Sons of Ataturk exposed to that horror.

post of the thread.

 

[nino_savatte]

Editor: I was led to believe that you were in the UK, are you not? If not then maybe you ARE unaware but AI was founded by 2 people, both communists, Peter Benenson and Alec Digges. Together the two had taken over the International Birgade Association in 1958, and then founded AI in 61 with their pal from the Observer.

As for HRW, the primary man behind that organisation was Robert Bernstein who began to form the organisation after a 73 trip to the USSR. He finally registered the group in 78 as "Helsinki Watch" which was supposed to be monitoring the Soviet's compliance with Helsinki but was actually described in declassified Soviet documents as an Agitprop front. Agitprop, for those that do not know, is the English translation of a Soviet era Russian word used to describe elements in the propaganda arm of Soviet Intel.

I would have thought that you would know these things. I understand the eternal malcontents asking for a source because that is what they do but the two organisations are so well known, as are their histories that I would have thought the subject passe.

Since when was hearsay and innuendo regarded as evidence? Once again, you make some dodgy remark about a human rights organisation but fail to produce any real, tangible, evidence.

 

[nino_savatte]

You have chosen sides. I have not. It's as simple as that.

Your use of syntax seems a little familiar, "Malamud".

 

[phildwyer]

If he believes it he approves of it as a description of reality.

How unlikely do you think it is that the world will end in a general conflagration centered on the state of Israel? Because it seems rather likely to me.

 

[Spion]

How unlikely do you think it is that the world will end in a general conflagration centered on the state of Israel? Because it seems rather likely to me.

I do think we will see another world war in the next couple/few decades. But the US, Europe, China (and possibly India and Russia) will be the main players. I've no reason to believe it will be 'centred' on Israel. Why should it? We've had two world wars in the last century and the middle east was a sideshow in both.

I do, however, think that it's important to remember that Israel has had a strategic usefulness in the world's richest oil region and that it was created and sustained in very specific geo-political circumstances. Given its ties to America we could over the next decades see any new rivals to US power putting a lot of resources into supporting its own clients in the region. If the Is-Pal situation isn't sorted out justly the (justified) anger of the Palestinians could be harnessed for a project as perverted as was the creation of Israel.

 

[phildwyer]

I do think we will see another world war in the next couple/few decades. But the US, Europe, China (and possibly India and Russia) will be the main players. I've no reason to believe it will be 'centred' on Israel. Why should it? We've had two world wars in the last century and the middle east was a sideshow in both.

I do, however, think that it's important to remember that Israel has had a strategic usefulness in the world's richest oil region and that it was created and sustained in very specific geo-political circumstances. Given its ties to America we could over the next decades see any new rivals to US power putting a lot of resources into supporting its own clients in the region. If the Is-Pal situation isn't sorted out justly the (justified) anger of the Palestinians could be harnessed for a project as perverted as was the creation of Israel.

Indeed. Also, sooner or later (probably sooner) the Arabs are going to get properly tooled up, and there will also be a radical revolution in Saudi Arabia. My point is that Biblical prophecy about Armageddon is hardly as risible as you appear to believe.

 

[Fruitloop]

Biblical self-fulfilling prophecy innit.

 

[phildwyer]

Biblical self-fulfilling prophecy innit.

Self-fulfilling, schmelf-fulfilling. If the prophecy is fulfilled it matters little how that comes about.

 

[Fruitloop]

The religio-loons will be the death of us all.

 

[phildwyer]

The religio-loons will be the death of us all.

Au contraire. It is *ignorance* of prophecy that allows its fulfillment, not knowledge.

 

[Fruitloop]

Do elaborate.

 

[Spion]

Indeed. Also, sooner or later (probably sooner) the Arabs are going to get properly tooled up, and there will also be a radical revolution in Saudi Arabia. My point is that Biblical prophecy about Armageddon is hardly as risible as you appear to believe.

People have been saying the end of the world is nigh for millenia. Like a stopped clock it might come true sometime, but it's no guide for human action. Worse than that, it has qualities of self-fulfilment about it, especially if nutters who believe in its get into positions of power.

 

[Fruitloop]

I mean it's not like 'awareness of the prophecy' is having a great calming effect on mad yank millenarians - the crazy bastards are positively slavering for it.

 

[phildwyer]

Do elaborate.

If people in positions of power really knew about and took Biblical prophecy seriously (as opposed to paying it lip service a la Bush) they would make more effort to prevent its fulfillment.