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Is Desmond Tutu a rabid hater of Jews?

Phil: Yes, we have quite the intellectual crowd here, do we not?

To the rest: When you accuse a Jewish Lobby of steering Amerifca, and then tells us that Nazis fell, Stalin fell, Idid Amin fell in the next breath you are in fact compariong the Lobby at least to those atrocious personalities. Again, what Lobby is it? Jewish Lobby. Then 2 years later Tutu publicly apoloigised for that speech and ammedend it, why do that if you have done nothing negative? Finally, why is it that almost every time we hear him talking he is telling us how he knew some Jews who helped campaig to end Apartheid?


Grandma: "List.": Yeah, if and when I get time.


Hipipol: "Junkies' ramble.": Very poetic and since you have also told us that you are a junkie, is it delight in finding another that motivates your slag or just nothing better to do with your non -program days? The mumbling of my name can aslo be blamed on your drug of choice, just though I would let you know.

"Fake Salaam": I mean Alderberan, whatever: One can justifiably criticise Israel in many ways without EVER coming close to being anti-Jewish. It is just when people like Carter, who has now opened an office in Ramallah (brillant Jimbo) or Tutu who has a history of making antagonistic statements towards Israel and its people going back well over 3 decades and has at times let slip the real cause of his ire that we see what is what.

You want criticism? The females ratio in the IAF Flight Program is horrid! Kibbutznikim in the Officer Corps is at its most dismal rate yet....Non-Jewish Males being barred in the IAF from all but support positions...The current brouhaha over who is and is not a Convert....Civil Courts in the hands of the Religious Communities....Disparities in the Tax Base leading to disparities in municpal allocations thus leading to further economic and educational disparities within these same communities...want to keep going? See, the thing is people here do not criticise anything real. They bite propaganda and try and trash things. That is juvenile and non-sensical.
 
To the rest: When you accuse a Jewish Lobby of steering Amerifca, and then tells us that Nazis fell, Stalin fell, Idid Amin fell in the next breath you are in fact compariong the Lobby at least to those atrocious personalities. Again, what Lobby is it? Jewish Lobby. Then 2 years later Tutu publicly apoloigised for that speech and ammedend it, why do that if you have done nothing negative? Finally, why is it that almost every time we hear him talking he is telling us how he knew some Jews who helped campaig to end Apartheid?

Can I see a link please that shows Tutu not only publicly apologised but also amended the speech? Strikes me as bizarre that such a high profile individual would first apologise then attempt to amend a speech that was already in the public domain.

You're being economical with the truth again aren't you rach :hmm:


Grandma: "List.": Yeah, if and when I get time.


Arr I see now time is a factor....make your mind up Rach. You're all over the place.

No need for a time limit. I have worked on it piecemeal but since I am producing soemthing I already know is in existence there is no great motivation to spur me along..
 
Face it rach there never was a list. In your head because Tutu has been critical of its actions you have read that as 'rabid jew hating' and as always you typed before you thought about it. You made a wildly exaggerated claim promised to back it up and now you've fallen on your arse.

Just like the factually incorrect claim you made about the ISM leadership.

Just like the nonsense about the statement you attributed to the producers of UVDA in the Captain R trial

Just like the claim that the Captain R trial was over.


We've been here before-its familiar territory. Don't worry nobody expects you to admit you were wrong-evading, ducking, weaving, excusing etc are all things you excel at. Admitting you're wrong-well thats another story.
 
Grandma: "Strikes me as strange.": EXACTLY. If he is NOT anti-Jewish, why ammend it? Why apologise for it? Why ever after include the anecdotal "I knew many Jews who helped to topple Apartheid" shtick? You have done me proud, proved my own case without trying. Thanks Grandpaw.

"ISM.": Back to that? Funny though. Everything about the group is rife with odor. From their passport fraud, to their aiding and abetting of an active terrorist and allowing storage of his materials in their Ramallah office suite, to interfering with an active GSS investigation, and so on. If you just meant their fraudelnt photos taken by the fool Carr/Smith, that too is perfect . The group is ridiculous. "A non-violent group that allows for the use of violence." Wonder how that dinner party with Ghandi and MLK might have went.

"UVDA.": Actually, one of our fellow posters even contacted the producers of UVDA so you should be asking her (I will not blow her out of the water, let her disclose what she knowns on her own) what they told her.

Captain R was dismissed of all charges and awarded damages from UVDA, UVDA, or more specifically the female producer I will not mention lest I give her even more publicity (she is currently embroiled in a lawsuit for accusing a well known Rabbi of all kinds of nosnesen and is again being sued), and Channel 2 in general.

As for evading, were I evading anything, I would not bother poisting here but see, you are transparent to just about everyone. You are not here to learn of others' opinions, to leanr other viewpoints or ways of life. You are here merely to antagonise like another poster I mentioned earlier.

In taking 2 years to look at your posts I hjave yet to see one civil and adult poist EVER. I will admit that since the Mods shook you down you have stopped with the CUN& nonsense and other expletives and that is to your credit as an alleged adult. Can you now progress to the point where you are able to have an actual discussion and not just harp and argue? Time will tell.

Meanwhile, any info you REALLY need or want is freely available online, or like our fellow poster, by contacting parties directly. Not by brow beating and insulting other posters. THAT accomplishes absolutely ZERO.
 
As for evading, were I evading anything, I would not bother poisting here but see, you are transparent to just about everyone. You are not here to learn of others' opinions, to leanr other viewpoints or ways of life. You are here merely to antagonise like another poster I mentioned earlier.

Ah, but Rach, on the contrary, you have learned nothing - as is evidenced by your rambling essays, which fail to engage with the points raised by other posters. Your evasiveness is also legend here: when asked for proof, you have consistently failed to provide any. Instead you resort to accusations of "ad homs" or "I'll post something when I get the chance".

You aren't interested in the opinions of others either (so please don't claim that you are). If you were, you may be a little more receptive to the fact that there certain activities that your beloved state is involved in that contravene international human rights protocols. But you aren't interested and, instead, post reams of racist bullshit that wouldn't be out of place on St*rmcunt.
 
Grandma: "Strikes me as strange.": EXACTLY. If he is NOT anti-Jewish, why ammend it? Why apologise for it? Why ever after include the anecdotal "I knew many Jews who helped to topple Apartheid" shtick? You have done me proud, proved my own case without trying. Thanks Grandpaw.

So you don't have a link to your claim then?

"ISM.": Back to that? Funny though. Everything about the group is rife with odor. From their passport fraud, to their aiding and abetting of an active terrorist and allowing storage of his materials in their Ramallah office suite, to interfering with an active GSS investigation, and so on. If you just meant their fraudelnt photos taken by the fool Carr/Smith, that too is perfect . The group is ridiculous. "A non-violent group that allows for the use of violence." Wonder how that dinner party with Ghandi and MLK might have went.

More waffle. Your claim was incorrect. You had 18 months and a final thread to prove that very claim. You didn't.

"UVDA.": Actually, one of our fellow posters even contacted the producers of UVDA so you should be asking her (I will not blow her out of the water, let her disclose what she knowns on her own) what they told her.

More waffle. Your claim was incorrect. You had 18 months and a final thread to prove that very claim. You didn't.

Captain R was dismissed of all charges and awarded damages from UVDA, UVDA, or more specifically the female producer I will not mention lest I give her even more publicity (she is currently embroiled in a lawsuit for accusing a well known Rabbi of all kinds of nosnesen and is again being sued), and Channel 2 in general.

More waffle. Your claim was incorrect. You had 18 months and a final thread to prove that very claim. You didn't.

As for evading, were I evading anything, I would not bother poisting here but see,

You founced twice over the issue. You promised to provide the evidence for 18 months then you made up a non existent ad hom to attempt to deflect from providing the evidence. It doesnt take a genius to work out-that is evasion.


In taking 2 years to look at your posts I hjave yet to see one civil and adult poist EVER.

Lies. Without even trawling through your posts this is just ONE of your recent posts:

As for proof Grandma, against all odds you have asked in a civil fashion and therefore this afternoon I will offer you that which you could have easily gotten yourself,.

I will admit that since the Mods shook you down you have stopped with the CUN& nonsense and other expletives

More lies. No single mod has ever spoken to me regarding ad homs.

Can you now progress to the point where you are able to have an actual discussion and not just harp and argue? Time will tell.

I've had plenty of discussions with you. Witness the two Tutu threads. The REAL issue is how you walk away from debates when pressed for evidence-not your perception that I just 'harp and argue'

Not by brow beating and insulting other posters. THAT accomplishes absolutely ZERO.

Well stop passing off debate/long winded posts as fact and back up your claims. Thats not too much to ask is it?
 
Nino: Legend? Is THAT what it is Nino? Pray tell, what do we call your responding, just like the OP, EACH AND EVERY TIME, with something denigrating and/or degrading. "Rachamim is this or that." So what Nino? Get on with it. It is not the "Rachamim Forum." This forum has some great potential that is sadly wasted by all the harping. I am what I am and if it is not your (or anyone else') cup of tea, simply move on. In fact, U75 has done one better by prooviding an "Ignore" function that will totally erase me from your U75 life should you choose to exercise THAT function. I know my opinion matters less than little to you but I do imagine that you have much better things to do with your time than follow my detestable posting so closely.


Now...As to your claim that Israel violates anything International, other than a poorly thought out Brief, where is the beef? NO indictments outside of a Belgian national or UK national court in cases filed by Arabs and their lackeys? One would think that such parties would, if they could, make a real case with the International Tribunal. Of course they cannot and most rational people realise why they cannot. Israel contravenes nothing, not even International Norms.

Critics like HRW, founded and continuously run by communists are as transparent as some U75ers. Amnesty? Same as charged. And try as they might, collecting all sorts of nonsense, even they are unable to bring a case . Why? Opinion will not cut it. It takes facts and facts can withstand the onslaught of propaganda. Israel was legally created, or to be more apt recreated as a Jewish Homeland BY INTERNATIONAL RATIFICATION. It does NOT contravene any agreement it is party to, nor does it contravene such standards as the Rules of War, etc.

As for "Stormfront," I believe the site is no longer in eixtence but it may please you to learn that I was (am?) indeed a member of the Forums there. I did not post there very much but I did find it enlightening to learn others' opinions however atrocious I might find them once fully examined.I do not agree with censorship or anyone, even people like you Nino, and that is where you and I differ greatly. I find value even in their atrocious outlooks because to be able to say you REALLY do not agree with soemthing, you have to really know what that something is.

You and many like you clutch onto a word or phrase and decide right there and then what your eternal take on the person uttering it will be. That is a huge mistake and while a disservice to the people you belittle, it is mostly a disservice to yourself since you are denying yourself a chance to grow.
 
Aside from wafffles which I happen to love, both with fried chicken the way American blacks prepare it, or with ice cream they way Belgians prepare it for tourists...I did say I was going to give you some piece of long sought evidence later on in a day of posting to you, and of course did not. That WAS remiss of me. However, I will not lose too much sleep over it given your shining light of an online personality.


"Walk away from debates when pressed for evidence.": I actually only do that to 2 people on thsi site and do so , obviously, by choice. However, that leads me to ask you the following: As I posed to Nino, why bother with me? I know you feel you are saving others from some unimaginable psychic pain by harrassing me but all you are doing is wasting bandwidth. Put me on ignore, continue your evaluations of me, but please relegate it to PM because try as you may to sully me, I have never monopolised threads with the denigration of people I have never met.
 
Lillian Hellman and Dashiell Hammet, whose estates sponsor HRW, were both Communists.

Amnesty International was indeed founded by former and current Communists: Peter Benenson and Alec Digges respectively.

'Communists' also supported the establishment of the state of israel and supplied it with weapons. 'Trotskyists' like Isaac Deutcsher supported israel. There is no left or right when it comes to truth in this matter.

If you want to criticise AI or HRW you need to deal with their findings as well as those of B'tselem - all of which, along with the International Court of Justice find israel consistently in breach of human rights and international law.
 
'Communists' also supported the establishment of the state of israel and supplied it with weapons. 'Trotskyists' like Isaac Deutcsher supported israel. There is no left or right when it comes to truth in this matter.

I know. That's why I'm neutral with regard to Israel. I can see the points of both sides. If I were an Arab I'd support Palestine, if I were a Jew I'd support Israel. Since I'm neither I just hope they can work things out without killing too many of each other. But since I believe events in the middle east to be directed by a Providential design on the basis of Biblical prophecy which will culminate in Armageddon I see little prospect of that.
 
I know. That's why I'm neutral with regard to Israel. I can see the points of both sides. If I were an Arab I'd support Palestine, if I were a Jew I'd support Israel. Since I'm neither I just hope they can work things out without killing too many of each other. But since I believe events in the middle east to be directed by a Providential design on the basis of Biblical prophecy which will culminate in Armageddon I see little prospect of that.
.
 
Lillian Hellman and Dashiell Hammet, whose estates sponsor HRW, were both Communists.

Not enough I'm afraid Phil. I need evidence that they are 'continously' ran by communists and indeed 'founded' by them.

The lesson being that it is best to check things for yourself rather than just barking "Links? Links? Links?" whenever anyone says anything.


Another lesson for you phil-read the actual claim before jumping in with both feet.

Critics like HRW, founded and continuously run by communists
 
I know. That's why I'm neutral with regard to Israel. I can see the points of both sides. If I were an Arab I'd support Palestine, if I were a Jew I'd support Israel. Since I'm neither I just hope they can work things out without killing too many of each other.

This is basically my position too.

But since I believe events in the middle east to be directed by a Providential design on the basis of Biblical prophecy which will culminate in Armageddon I see little prospect of that.

But this is not.
 
This is basically my position too.
ie, an ignorant one that ignores ethnic cleansing on a massive scale and continued occupation of lands which the UN declares illegal every year and a list of human rights breaches as long as a very long arm indeed
 
ie, an ignorant one that ignores ethnic cleansing on a massive scale and continued occupation of lands which the UN declares illegal every year and a list of human rights breaches as long as a very long arm indeed

Hamas does not consist of people dedicated to peaceful means either.

Note that I don't call you ignorant.
 
Hamas does not consist of people dedicated to peaceful means either.
I don't think you'd be very peaceful if I stole your house and forced you to live in a 1m pen in the garden over which I controlled all access by land and sea and air, energy supplies, food and medical treatment. Oh, and I'd bomb you regularly as well for good measure.

Anyway, my point was that a position of neutrality ignores the historic and continuing injustice to the Palestinians and illegal occupation that is confimed as such every year by the UN Intl Court of Justice, by numerous (ignored/unenforced) resolutions and by every human rights organisation out there.
 
Anyway, my point was that a position of neutrality ignores the historic and continuing injustice to the Palestinians and illegal occupation that is confimed as such every year by the UN Intl Court of Justice, by numerous (ignored/unenforced) resolutions and by every human rights organisation out there.


I ignore none of that. Nor do I ignore the Isreali need to protect itself from those who wish only to "drive the Jews into the sea".
 
I ignore none of that. Nor do I ignore the Isreali need to protect itself from those who wish only to "drive the Jews into the sea".
Which isn't happening and has no chance of happening. And which is in fact largely a smokescreen to cover the continuing siege, ghettoisation, land theft, continued (illegal) settlement, hundreds of checkpoints, daily harrassment shooting and bombing of Palestinians.

Complaining that there are some Palestinians who want to do harm to Jews is like complaining that during a slave revolt some black folks shouted 'Kill whitey!' Get some perspective
 
Which isn't happening and has no chance of happening. And which is in fact largely a smokescreen to cover the continuing siege, ghettoisation, land theft, continued (illegal) settlement, hundreds of checkpoints, daily harrassment shooting and bombing of Palestinians.

Complaining that there are some Palestinians who want to do harm to Jews is like complaining that during a slave revolt some black folks shouted 'Kill whitey!' Get some perspective

You have chosen sides. I have not. It's as simple as that.
 
You have chosen sides. I have not. It's as simple as that.
Would you have taken the same view with apartheid, the holocaust, slavery etc?

"The holocaust? I'm neutral. I haven't taken sides" - Would that be acceptable do you think?
 
Would you have taken the same view with apartheid, the holocaust, slavery etc?

"The holocaust? I'm neutral. I haven't taken sides" - Would that be acceptable do you think?

Your problem is that you see no right on the side of the Israelis whatsoever. Apatheid, the holocaust and slavery, (and indeed many other issues) have no right on their side, but, in my view, the Israelis do.
 
Your problem is that you see no right on the side of the Israelis whatsoever. Apatheid, the holocaust and slavery, (and indeed many other issues) have no right on their side, but, in my view, the Israelis do.
Why is occupation, daily harrassment, bombing, shooting, besieging Gaza and starving it a good thing exactly? And I am puzzled how the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 people can have been a good thing. Now millions of descendants of those people have nothing but a burning desire to gain justice - do you think peace can happen if that's not in some way addressed?

(NB, Nothing I've said so far today necessarily contradicts a two state solution and recognition of Israel's right to exist.)
 
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