I'm off to the pub now, but before I go I just wanted to say that I know of no-one, not even the hardest hearted Israeli, who thinks any of the things you listed to be a "good thing".
I'll be back after the football, if I'm not too drunk.
Is Desmond Tutu a rabid hater of Jews?
- Thread starter Grandma Death
- Start date
I'm off to the pub now, but before I go I just wanted to say that I know of no-one, not even the hardest hearted Israeli, who thinks any of the things you listed to be a "good thing".
I'll be back after the football, if I'm not too drunk.
Spion
I hear ya
And yet it happened and is happening and millions of people suffer daily becuase of it. And nothing gets done about it. The UN has passed numerous resolutions over the decades calling for the return of refugees, for Israel to withdraw from its illegally occupied war gains etc, and all of them are ignored.
Editor: I was led to believe that you were in the UK, are you not? If not then maybe you ARE unaware but AI was founded by 2 people, both communists, Peter Benenson and Alec Digges. Together the two had taken over the International Birgade Association in 1958, and then founded AI in 61 with their pal from the Observer.
As for HRW, the primary man behind that organisation was Robert Bernstein who began to form the organisation after a 73 trip to the USSR. He finally registered the group in 78 as "Helsinki Watch" which was supposed to be monitoring the Soviet's compliance with Helsinki but was actually described in declassified Soviet documents as an Agitprop front. Agitprop, for those that do not know, is the English translation of a Soviet era Russian word used to describe elements in the propaganda arm of Soviet Intel.
I would have thought that you would know these things. I understand the eternal malcontents asking for a source because that is what they do but the two organisations are so well known, as are their histories that I would have thought the subject passe.
As for HRW, the primary man behind that organisation was Robert Bernstein who began to form the organisation after a 73 trip to the USSR. He finally registered the group in 78 as "Helsinki Watch" which was supposed to be monitoring the Soviet's compliance with Helsinki but was actually described in declassified Soviet documents as an Agitprop front. Agitprop, for those that do not know, is the English translation of a Soviet era Russian word used to describe elements in the propaganda arm of Soviet Intel.
I would have thought that you would know these things. I understand the eternal malcontents asking for a source because that is what they do but the two organisations are so well known, as are their histories that I would have thought the subject passe.
Spion
I hear ya
All irrelevant to the fact that both organisations have produced hundreds of reports detailing Israel's record of breaking international law on torture, assasination, unlawful imprisonment, exile etc etc in tens of thousands of cases.
You need to deal with their findings rather than engage in crude smears, especially those which try to liken them to Soviet-era forms of organisation, the closest to which we have today - being an 'international' following the party line of the motherland - is your own brand of 'advocates' for Israel. You also rival them in terms of inverting the truth a la Newspeak
You need to deal with their findings rather than engage in crude smears, especially those which try to liken them to Soviet-era forms of organisation, the closest to which we have today - being an 'international' following the party line of the motherland - is your own brand of 'advocates' for Israel. You also rival them in terms of inverting the truth a la Newspeak
Phil: Ahhhh, I knew you would have known. And of course your point to Grandma took the words right out of my mouth (there goes another cliche). So true. Simple subjects as these, and one asks for sources I can only then think it is some form of antagonism because the subjects are so well known. Granted, it would depend on one's age group perhaps and those who came of age after the Cold War just might not know... but they should.
Spion: Communists founded Israel? No, they did not although many communists supported the idea, as did the Soviets for the first 5 years. Indeed, as you correctly mentioned, were it not for communists we would not have been armed because it was the Czecks who agreed to sell us junked US surplus when noone else would, and then they stopped with the USSR when they saw we were not going to be red hatted commies.
We were founded by socialists, and there is a distinct difference which I am sure you already know. We did have perhaps the closest true example of communism in action with United Kibbutz but that lasted one generation and had nothing to really do with our political scene or outlook.
B'tzelem is a joke. They are semi-retarded. What do they do? They offer UNNAMED soldiers who say, "We watched the World Cup when we were ensconced in an Arab home in Hebron" or, "I stole a ream of copy paper out of the Mookatah." All of it is inconsequential nonsense that they can never prove. The worst case they have reported? The beating of a taxi stand owner that SHABAK found was total and utter bullsh$%.
Now, the sadness of it, the real frustration with this group of con artists is that just as with any other military, etc. we do have REAL cases of abuse. WE also have investigative arms that do thorough and great jobs. Put it this way, when I was younger, if you did not have your beret on you would get 30 days in prison and our military prisons are not like your Western Hotels (meaning your prisons). While the beret rule is different in that we do not have to wear them anymore, merely have them on our person under the epatulet except when in full dress, the severity of our system remains intact.
When , for example, a group of Border Police beat a suspect or two they were made to stand outside trial and charged severely. BUT, with morons like B'tzelem and Breaking Silence the waters get so muddied that many real cases that should get proper investigations are shrugged off as nonsense and for that the blame lies with fake groups like the afore mentioned who flood our branches with inane paperwork alleging nonsense.
Now...When did the International Court EVER find Israel guilty of anything? ALl it has EVER done is allow a shoddy Brief over the Barrier. In other words, no indictment, no tiral, no charges, nothing, nada, zilch.
Spion: Communists founded Israel? No, they did not although many communists supported the idea, as did the Soviets for the first 5 years. Indeed, as you correctly mentioned, were it not for communists we would not have been armed because it was the Czecks who agreed to sell us junked US surplus when noone else would, and then they stopped with the USSR when they saw we were not going to be red hatted commies.
We were founded by socialists, and there is a distinct difference which I am sure you already know. We did have perhaps the closest true example of communism in action with United Kibbutz but that lasted one generation and had nothing to really do with our political scene or outlook.
B'tzelem is a joke. They are semi-retarded. What do they do? They offer UNNAMED soldiers who say, "We watched the World Cup when we were ensconced in an Arab home in Hebron" or, "I stole a ream of copy paper out of the Mookatah." All of it is inconsequential nonsense that they can never prove. The worst case they have reported? The beating of a taxi stand owner that SHABAK found was total and utter bullsh$%.
Now, the sadness of it, the real frustration with this group of con artists is that just as with any other military, etc. we do have REAL cases of abuse. WE also have investigative arms that do thorough and great jobs. Put it this way, when I was younger, if you did not have your beret on you would get 30 days in prison and our military prisons are not like your Western Hotels (meaning your prisons). While the beret rule is different in that we do not have to wear them anymore, merely have them on our person under the epatulet except when in full dress, the severity of our system remains intact.
When , for example, a group of Border Police beat a suspect or two they were made to stand outside trial and charged severely. BUT, with morons like B'tzelem and Breaking Silence the waters get so muddied that many real cases that should get proper investigations are shrugged off as nonsense and for that the blame lies with fake groups like the afore mentioned who flood our branches with inane paperwork alleging nonsense.
Now...When did the International Court EVER find Israel guilty of anything? ALl it has EVER done is allow a shoddy Brief over the Barrier. In other words, no indictment, no tiral, no charges, nothing, nada, zilch.
Spion: "I do not think you would be peaceful either if...": Man, you used that same exact paragraph in another thread...to which I again reminded you that Gaza was Jewish 3 hundred years bfore the first Arab appears in history. Arabs are native to one place only, al Hejaz and guess what? It is a long way from Gaza. Please look at a map.
We on the other hand were in Gaza city in the year 1000 BCE/BC and when the first Arabs rode into Gaza on their camels, we were the only people living there save for a garrison of Byzantine soldiers in Gaza city with whom we fought side by side against these invading ususrpers.
That they now live in Gaza is their choice, they could have lived in the "WB," they could have had their own nation since 1919, they could live in the true "Palestine," AKA Jordan, or any other option. That they live in Gaza and in harsh conditions is because of their piss poor choices. Stop shooting RPGS, mortars, rockets up to 120 mm long, and trying to send us human bombs and then they can have all the freedom they want. There is an International Airport in Gaza, a deep sea port, and it is supposed to be connected with the so called "WB" but because of HAMAS, it is what it is. Place blame where blame truly lies.
Stop blaming Israel for merely existing. We get the drift, it is impossible for communists to now support Israel, yeah, we get it. We have heard it since 1952 so please beat us in the head with a different song and dance.
"Confirmed every year by the International...": WHAT? Name one time please. I think you are a tad bit confused. The UN Security Council, which by the way although they are again harping on it do not do so every year, is NOT the International arbiter of anything . It is merely a podium for inherent bias as espoused by the Arab League and its minions.
We on the other hand were in Gaza city in the year 1000 BCE/BC and when the first Arabs rode into Gaza on their camels, we were the only people living there save for a garrison of Byzantine soldiers in Gaza city with whom we fought side by side against these invading ususrpers.
That they now live in Gaza is their choice, they could have lived in the "WB," they could have had their own nation since 1919, they could live in the true "Palestine," AKA Jordan, or any other option. That they live in Gaza and in harsh conditions is because of their piss poor choices. Stop shooting RPGS, mortars, rockets up to 120 mm long, and trying to send us human bombs and then they can have all the freedom they want. There is an International Airport in Gaza, a deep sea port, and it is supposed to be connected with the so called "WB" but because of HAMAS, it is what it is. Place blame where blame truly lies.
Stop blaming Israel for merely existing. We get the drift, it is impossible for communists to now support Israel, yeah, we get it. We have heard it since 1952 so please beat us in the head with a different song and dance.
"Confirmed every year by the International...": WHAT? Name one time please. I think you are a tad bit confused. The UN Security Council, which by the way although they are again harping on it do not do so every year, is NOT the International arbiter of anything . It is merely a podium for inherent bias as espoused by the Arab League and its minions.
Spion: Comparing Gaza to the Holocaust is disgusting and cheap. Surely you are capable of more adult dialogue?
"Starving.": Sorry, that is not happening. As I have explained AND SOURCED for you Israel sends at least one hundred 53 foot trailers worth of humanitarian aid each and every day of the week, including our Sabbath when everything else stops, and including daily as RPGS, mortars, and Qassams are fired at those same exact crossings.
"Ethnic cleansing of 750,000 people.": That is comical at this point given the sources I have provided you. The UN says there was barely a bit over 300,000 (not a small number by any means but just proof of the propaganda that muddies this otherwise truly valid subject). Same on people who manipulate these facts to suit their own selfish needs.
"UN has passed resolutions over returning refuggees.": All non binding but here is soemthing I have told you more than several times already: In 1949, with UN Mediation post Armistice Israel agreed for the immediate repatriation of 100,000 Arabs with more to follow. THE ARABS REFUSED. THEY REFUSED. Is it clear to you yet? THEY REFUSED. They did however agree to accept 10 million US dollars in 1949 (close to 400 million today), which was paid out in 1953 to cover lost property and assets.
BUT...since you are VERY concerned with refuggees I know that you will want to give equal time to the ONE MILLION JEWISH REFUGEES FROM ARAB LANDS who have lost more than 1 billion US dollars in 1949 value (now an almost incalucuable amount). The 1 million number is verified by the UN. Not one has been offered repatriation, as Israel offered to Arabs, in fact Israel allowed all Arabs who signed the obesiance vow to return, and then offered 100,000 who did not sign, as I already explained. How many Arab countries have made an offer? How many dollars have been paid out to them?
"Starving.": Sorry, that is not happening. As I have explained AND SOURCED for you Israel sends at least one hundred 53 foot trailers worth of humanitarian aid each and every day of the week, including our Sabbath when everything else stops, and including daily as RPGS, mortars, and Qassams are fired at those same exact crossings.
"Ethnic cleansing of 750,000 people.": That is comical at this point given the sources I have provided you. The UN says there was barely a bit over 300,000 (not a small number by any means but just proof of the propaganda that muddies this otherwise truly valid subject). Same on people who manipulate these facts to suit their own selfish needs.
"UN has passed resolutions over returning refuggees.": All non binding but here is soemthing I have told you more than several times already: In 1949, with UN Mediation post Armistice Israel agreed for the immediate repatriation of 100,000 Arabs with more to follow. THE ARABS REFUSED. THEY REFUSED. Is it clear to you yet? THEY REFUSED. They did however agree to accept 10 million US dollars in 1949 (close to 400 million today), which was paid out in 1953 to cover lost property and assets.
BUT...since you are VERY concerned with refuggees I know that you will want to give equal time to the ONE MILLION JEWISH REFUGEES FROM ARAB LANDS who have lost more than 1 billion US dollars in 1949 value (now an almost incalucuable amount). The 1 million number is verified by the UN. Not one has been offered repatriation, as Israel offered to Arabs, in fact Israel allowed all Arabs who signed the obesiance vow to return, and then offered 100,000 who did not sign, as I already explained. How many Arab countries have made an offer? How many dollars have been paid out to them?
Spion: "Both organisations have produced reports on Israel.": And as the Jerusalem Post reproted last week, an Israeli NGO has proved the inherent bias exhibited in the HRW reports. As for AI, the same criticsm is valid for them. They asre driven by partisanship and ideology and the two are not a good mix with NGOs.
Choosing to critisce Israel while ignoring 30 other places with much worse wituations, on a consistent basis, and using terminology not used with any other nation is indicative of an agenda. Of course, given your admitted partisanship, and I respect you for that (seriously), you would not see a problem with that and that Spion is a shame. See, I can admit that the MFA has an agenda and ergo I do not offer their reports as proof of anything.
I do not follow party lines Spion. I have valid criticisms of my homeland and encourage other valid constructive criticisms but those groups are partisan, as are you and that negates anything they have to say. If you are for peace, you want peace for everyone. If you hate sub-munitions and criticise Israel for employing them, then you must criticise Hezbollah who iniated their usage in that war but HRW does not do that, do they?
Choosing to critisce Israel while ignoring 30 other places with much worse wituations, on a consistent basis, and using terminology not used with any other nation is indicative of an agenda. Of course, given your admitted partisanship, and I respect you for that (seriously), you would not see a problem with that and that Spion is a shame. See, I can admit that the MFA has an agenda and ergo I do not offer their reports as proof of anything.
I do not follow party lines Spion. I have valid criticisms of my homeland and encourage other valid constructive criticisms but those groups are partisan, as are you and that negates anything they have to say. If you are for peace, you want peace for everyone. If you hate sub-munitions and criticise Israel for employing them, then you must criticise Hezbollah who iniated their usage in that war but HRW does not do that, do they?
Spion: do you accept that Israel has a right to exist? My apologies if you have already made your position clear on this question.
Spion
I hear ya
Israel always exists in the minds of Jews who want to believe in it. There's nothing I could or would want to change about that
What's important is that people should have full and equal rights under the law to affect their lives and their futures, that they are not subject to economic blockade, checkpoints, harrassment, beating, torture, killing, that refugees are not barred from returning or gaining a settlement for stolen land and property etc - ie, that it is not the apartheid state it is now. And I expect if the people involved went any way towards resolving the situation they'd not call it just 'Israel' or 'Palestine' but some combination of the two.
Not that you care anyway, with your crazy biblical nonsense
Let me be more specific then. Do you believe that a Jewish state has the right to exist?
Spion
I hear ya
As long as it doesn't prejudice the rights of anyone else living on the piece of land in question.
Why, where do you suggest putting one?
Hahaha yes, the Bible really is a load of silly old nonsense is it not? It prophecizes that the world will end in a general conflagration centered on the village of Megiddo in Israel, and that this will be preceded by large-scale climactic change, the development of previously unknown fatal diseases, and the return of Jerusalem to Jewish rule. Hahaha what nonsense, could anything be more ridiculous, hahaha.
Twit.
The 1967 borders of the state of Israel. Any objections?
Spion
I hear ya
A. I'm not convinced that resolves the grievances of the descendants of the 750,000 Palestinians who were driven out in 1948
B. I'm not generally in favour of access to resources being distributed on ethnic grounds, so I'd never advocate a 'Jewish state' a 'white state' or the like.
C. It's not me you need to convince anyway. If you are convinced the 67 borders are a basis for a settlement you need to be arguing against the de facto annexation of most of those territories by Israel which goes against yearly UN pronouncements decaring it illegal.
D. If you were serious about the 67 borders you'd be arguing against all of Israel's abuses in the post 67 lands. Instead you're here having fun bating Israel's critics and have admitted you wish to see conflict to usher in the day of judgement or somesuch nonsense.
Fuck off, I said no such thing and you know it.
Spion
I hear ya
Calm down, please
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7642784&postcount=47
And all of a sudden the discussion revolves around you, ignoring the political content of the answers I gave to your questions
This quote shows me saying exactly the reverse of what you claimed I'd said.
Yes, that tends to happen when you accuse people of hoping for the third world war.
A. There comes a point where everyone has to accept the de facto.
B. In general I would agree, however I make an exeption in the case of the Jews in view of their unique history of persecution.
C. I do argue aginst them.
Spion
I hear ya
When does that point come? Please tell me when, in your view, that cut off point arrives in terms of timescales, people, property etc
Every case of persecution is unique. In my book, having suffered does not give the right to make others suffer. You clearly differ
Can you point me towards any examples of this on the middle east threads on U75?
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Links to said documents-and whilst you are searching-where's the evidence that they are continously funded by communists.
Heeeee's back!
50 years seems about right.
Indeed I do. The history of the Jews is unique in every regard.
I appreciate your interest in my views, but let's remember that this thread is not about me but about the issues. Either stick to them or do not bother.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
*yawn*
He's gone again!
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
You're really taken by me aren't you phil? Its ok....I know you have some deep seated issues going on in that mind of yours-but really...I'm not interested in feeding your ego-go find someone else to bother there's a good lad. Either that or start one of your lesbo threads-you obviously get a real kick from them.
I'm sorry Granny, but this thread is for the discussion of middle eastern affairs. It is not an appropriate venue for your pathetic personal insults. If you cannot contribute to our discussion in a productive manner you will be forced to leave it to those of us who can.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
You're really taken by me aren't you phil? Its ok....I know you have some deep seated issues going on in that mind of yours-but really...I'm not interested in feeding your ego-go find someone else to bother there's a good lad. Either that or start one of your lesbo threads-you obviously get a real kick from them.
Seriously, can you stop your disruption please? We were having a decent conversation before you turned up.
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