How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[laptop]

If you are giving credence/authority to historical victims of abuse won't that empower current/recent victims?

1) It's always been a worry that a focus on "organised" abuse distracts attention from the vast majority of abuse, which is opportunistic by step-fathers, brothers, uncles and others - fine upstanding Daily Mail readers, a lot of them.

2) The focus on "organised" abuse could even detract from the credence given to those reporting the above mundane abuse - these reports don't fit the narrative

3) Certainly, it distracts public attention from the biggest (and arguably most damaging) part of the problem and that could leave mundane abusers feeling they can get away with it more easily, or reinforce their denial that what they do is damaging

4) Most definitely, it diverts resources from investigating reports of mundane abuse

 

[teqniq]

1) It's always been a worry that a focus on "organised" abuse distracts attention from the vast majority of abuse, which is opportunistic by step-fathers, brothers, uncles and others - fine upstanding Daily Mail readers, a lot of them.

2) The focus on "organised" abuse could even detract from the credence given to those reporting the above mundane abuse - these reports don't fit the narrative

3) Certainly, it distracts public attention from the biggest (and arguably most damaging) part of the problem and that could leave mundane abusers feeling they can get away with it more easily, or reinforce their denial that what they do is damaging

4) Most definitely, it diverts resources from investigating reports of mundane abuse

Those are fair points but regardless of how long ago the alleged offences occurred, if charges can be bought and people are found guilty they should pay the highest price imo, particularly because they are or were in positions of power and responsibility and to some extent could be seen as people to be held in high regard.

 

[hot air baboon]

....also difficult to swallow gripes about diverting resources when it's not like they didn't have opportunities a-plenty to investigate all this when it wasn't "...a long time ago..."

 

[laptop]

....also difficult to swallow gripes about diverting resources when it's not like they didn't have opportunities a-plenty to investigate all this when it wasn't "...a long time ago..."

Obviously, to get to where we want to be we'd prefer not to start from where we are...

 

[hot air baboon]

...I meant gripes from those who didn't do their jobs properly in the first place just to be clear.....we'll see what Operation Yvonne turns up ofcourse as an indicator in terms of how far they are prepared to go in the current investigation in shining a spotlight onto the whole issue of how these investigations were conducted at the time....

 

[Diamond]

o

1) It's always been a worry that a focus on "organised" abuse distracts attention from the vast majority of abuse, which is opportunistic by step-fathers, brothers, uncles and others - fine upstanding Daily Mail readers, a lot of them.

2) The focus on "organised" abuse could even detract from the credence given to those reporting the above mundane abuse - these reports don't fit the narrative

3) Certainly, it distracts public attention from the biggest (and arguably most damaging) part of the problem and that could leave mundane abusers feeling they can get away with it more easily, or reinforce their denial that what they do is damaging

4) Most definitely, it diverts resources from investigating reports of mundane abuse

Yep, that's pretty much the main line of reasoning I was thinking of.

But I think there are a few other things worth exploring as well in contrast - sort of supply side (the investigators) v demand side (those insisting on the investigation).

Geoffrey Dickinson was definitely on to something with the Hayman affair and may well have been on to other things but what seems fairly clear is that he made as much political capital out of those matters as he possibly could, eventually ending up with the SRA allegations.

Tom Watson may well be on to something but he is also making plenty of political capital out of this and will continue to do so the longer it continues.

The PM can also do well by seeming to distance himself from a seedy, historic establishment and pretending to be a reforming influence by announcing numerous inquiries into these allegations - inquiries being one of his major political tools (no surprise there given his PR background etc).

The press also does well by constantly breaking new scoops on a salacious scandal. Indeed some elements of the press may only have one horse to ride and they're going to flog it until it gives up the ghost.

And to bring this all back home - all of this noise distracts from the proven abuse scandals that have emerged over the course of the last year to the convenience of those at fault there.

 

[nino_savatte]

Tom Watson may well be on to something but he is also making plenty of political capital out of this and will continue to do so the longer it continues.

That's not necessarily a bad thing because: 1) it keeps the whole thing alive and 2) it chips away at the Tory façade.

Geoffrey Dickinson

It's Geoffrey Dickens (as in the author).

 

[Diamond]

That's not necessarily a bad thing because: 1) it keeps the whole thing alive and 2) it chips away at the Tory façade.



It's Geoffrey Dickens (as in the author).

Right you are.

On the first point though - I think that aspect is worth drawing out a bit more...

How many people want there to be victims of paedophile Tory MPs and why and what does that say about the way this story has developed/is developing?

 

[nino_savatte]

How many people want there to be victims of paedophile Tory MPs and why and what does that say about the way this story has developed/is developing?

That's not even remotely what I'm suggesting. The Tories (especially Cameron) want this story/issue to drop off the radar - so to speak. It suits them (and their pals in MI5/6) to have this kicked into the long grass.

 

[Diamond]

That's not even remotely what I'm suggesting. The Tories (especially Cameron) want this story/issue to drop off the radar - so to speak. It suits them (and their pals in MI5/6) to have this kicked into the long grass.

I can see why you might take that point of view but I think that you're mistaken.

The overarching inquiry as well as the underlying police investigations are, on balance, probably politically expedient for the Tories (and maybe all the political parties) in the run-up to the next general election to the extent that they serve as a distraction technique.

Those named and proven so far, Cyril Smith and Peter Hayman, were not Tory MPs in the first instance and, even were some to be discovered, it would be eminently possible, though decidedly risky, for the current Tory party to draw a line of distinction between them then and them now, possibly even profiting by assuming the mantle of being truth-telling moral crusaders reforming British institutions guided by a "British Values" moral compass...bullshit ad infinitum etc...

 

[nino_savatte]

I can see why you might take that point of view but I think that you're mistaken.

The overarching inquiry as well as the underlying police investigations are, on balance, probably politically expedient for the Tories (and maybe all the political parties) in the run-up to the next general election to the extent that they serve as a distraction technique.

Those named and proven so far, Cyril Smith and Peter Hayman, were not Tory MPs in the first instance and, even were some to be discovered, it would be eminently possible, though decidedly risky, for the current Tory party to draw a line of distinction between them then and them now, possibly even profiting by assuming the mantle of being truth-telling moral crusaders reforming British institutions guided by a "British Values" moral compass...bullshit ad infinitum etc...

You're all over the place.

 

[Diamond]

The overarching inquiry was sought by Tory MPs last July and convened on a timetable that anticipates the publication of its interim findings shortly prior to the next general election.

If you're looking for conspiracies and sharp practices, that should raise an eyebrow or two...

 

[brogdale]

The overarching inquiry was sought by Tory MPs last July and convened on a timetable that anticipates the publication of its interim findings shortly prior to the next general election.

Incorrect. The 124 co-signatory MPs came from all three main parties, (and virtually all of the parties with parliamentary representation), with Labour MPs making up the largest sub-set.

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5...n-parliament-to-address-child-sex-abuse-in-uk

Nino's right; you're all over the place with this distraction theory shit.

 

[elbows]

And to bring this all back home - all of this noise distracts from the proven abuse scandals that have emerged over the course of the last year to the convenience of those at fault there.

Can you just confirm which emerged proven scandals you mean before I wade into this latest chapter of the conversation? Cheers.

 

[Diamond]

Incorrect. The 124 co-signatory MPs came from all three main parties, (and virtually all of the parties with parliamentary representation), with Labour MPs making up the largest sub-set.

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5...n-parliament-to-address-child-sex-abuse-in-uk

Nino's right; you're all over the place with this distraction theory shit.

Not in the first instance.

The charge was led by Zac Goldsmith and Tim Loughton initially and then others jumped on the bandwagon.

 

[Diamond]

Can you just confirm which emerged proven scandals you mean before I wade into this latest chapter of the conversation? Cheers.

Among others, the main one would be the events in Rotherham.

 

[brogdale]

Not in the first instance.

The charge was led by Zac Goldsmith and Tim Loughton initially and then others jumped on the bandwagon.

Also factually incorrect. The 7 originators included 2 tory, 2 LD, 2 Labour and Caroline Lucas.

 

[elbows]

A primary reason I don't tend to attach much emphasis to the political party origins of these abuse inquiries etc is that the overriding motivating forces go so far beyond the westminster bubble and their petty little games. The rattling sound of skeletons that should be confronted became rather loud post-Savile. Politicians of whatever stripes are responding in largely predictable ways, but they aren't really in the driving seat to the extent necessary to believe in some of the cynical partisan politics angles some might like to file all this abuse stuff under. And a whole bunch of 'party first' responses are sort of driven off-limits by the fact there are probably offenders of all political stripes who may be exposed. For this and other reasons we should be more worries about scenarios where MPs from all the parties are united, than in ones that involve a particular party trying to make political capital out of it. Some individual MPs will, but we can judge them as individuals rather than part of larger political set-pieces.

 

[Diamond]

Also factually incorrect. The 7 originators included 2 tory, 2 LD, 2 Labour and Caroline Lucas.

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5...sa-may-to-set-up-inquiry-into-child-sex-abuse

Former children's minister Tim Loughton and Conservative backbencher Zac Goldsmith are calling for a national inquiry into historical cases of child sex abuse.

Goldsmith has co-ordinated a high-powered cross-party group of seven MPs to sign a joint letter to Theresa May, home secretary, urging her to set up an independent panel to investigate repeated failures by police and other authorities in a wide variety of cases

First two paras of Exaro's own report on its inception. Not sure how that is inconsistent with what I have stated above.

 

[brogdale]

Not sure how that is inconsistent with what I have stated above.

This was/is inconsistent with the facts...

The overarching inquiry was sought by Tory MPs last July

 

[Diamond]

Yep, still don't see the inconsistency there to be frank.

 

[elbows]

Yes it is misleading to place too much emphasis on who was co-ordinating the calls for an overarching inquiry, at the expense of other MPs who were giving it their backing. Its bloody obvious that the likes of Tom Watson have been rather energetic about these issues for a long time.

Anyway if I were one of a number of MPs across party bounds that shared the same objective of getting the government to act on something in particular, I might think it a good idea if the person who formally contacts the relevant minister were from the same party as the minister.

 

[brogdale]

Yep, still don't see the inconsistency there to be frank.

Oh

 

[Diamond]

A primary reason I don't tend to attach much emphasis to the political party origins of these abuse inquiries etc is that the overriding motivating forces go so far beyond the westminster bubble and their petty little games. The rattling sound of skeletons that should be confronted became rather loud post-Savile. Politicians of whatever stripes are responding in largely predictable ways, but they aren't really in the driving seat to the extent necessary to believe in some of the cynical partisan politics angles some might like to file all this abuse stuff under. And a whole bunch of 'party first' responses are sort of driven off-limits by the fact there are probably offenders of all political stripes who may be exposed. For this and other reasons we should be more worries about scenarios where MPs from all the parties are united, than in ones that involve a particular party trying to make political capital out of it. Some individual MPs will, but we can judge them as individuals rather than part of larger political set-pieces.

What role, if any, do you think the whips played in this?

 

[hot air baboon]

http://nyenquirer.uk/operation-hibiscus-truth-not-whole-truth/

North Yorkshire Police statement: Operation Hibiscus

For some time now, despite intimidation and threats from the Police and Scarborough Borough Council, the North Yorks Enquirer has been pursuing the truth.

We have consistently alleged that there was a major paedophile-ring operating in Scarborough from 1947 until about 2009 and that it included Jimmy Savile and Peter Jaconelli, the Mayor of Scarborough. We have alleged that his ring was the most successful paedophile ring in British criminal history, was connected to the Westminster paedophile ring, operated far beyond North Yorkshire, had international connections and was involved in trafficking and enticing young people into prostitution. It was successful because Jaconelli was protected by North Yorkshire Police, because he was a Scarborough Borough Councillor, County Councillor, millionaire businessman, Mayor, leading Scarborough Citizen who was a School Governor and ran the local Judo Club.

Operation Hibiscus, the investigation into these allegations, has now reported. North Yorkshire Police has now been forced to publicly admit that the most successful and longest-running paedophile-ring in British criminal history peacefully co-existed with North Yorkshire Police in Scarborough for forty years. It included Britain`s most prolific rapists and sex offenders Jimmy Savile and Peter Jaconelli, was connected to the Westminster paedophile-ring and operated openly with the full knowledge of North Yorkshire Police. The Force’s failure to arrest any of the members over the course of fifty years of relatively open offending, despite numerous complaints and reports, was inexcusable, a national scandal and deeply corrupt.
We believe that, over the course of its existence from 1947 until about 2009, the ring had thousands of victims and was much bigger and worse than the Rotherham or Rochdale rings.


North Yorkshire Police have today published this statement.

Press Release Operation Hibiscus:

Investigation into allegations of historic sexual abuse by the late Scarborough mayor Peter Jaconelli and Jimmy Savile
North Yorkshire Police can today [Thursday 18 December 2014] confirm the findings of an investigation into allegations of historic sexual abuse made against the late Scarborough mayor Peter Jaconelli and Jimmy Savile.
Operation Hibiscus began on 14 February 2014. It was instigated following the broadcast of the regional TV news programme Inside Out, which prompted 35 people to come forward with reports of historic sexual abuse by Jaconelli and Savile.

32 of the cases related to Jaconelli for reported offences that occurred between1958 and 1998, and five to Savile that occurred between 1979 and 1988.
Each individual case was investigated by a team of experienced detectives. The victims have been directed to, and offered the support from, specialist victim support agencies.
The investigations have now come to a conclusion.

Sufficient evidence has been uncovered to suggest that, had they been alive today, files would have been submitted for consideration by the Crown Prosecution Service regarding potential criminal charges against Peter Jaconelli and Jimmy Savile, relating to young people.
However, it should be noted that it has not been possible to pursue those lines of enquiry which would have involved interviews with the individuals concerned, during which they may have disputed the allegations against them.

The reported offences linked to Jaconelli ranged from indecent assault, inciting a child to engage in sexual activity, gross indecency and rape.
For Savile, the reported offences ranged from sexual assault (or indecent assault under current law) to rape.
The investigation team has contacted the victims to explain the findings of the inquiry, and to ensure that they have continued access to all available support as victims of sexual abuse.

Assistant Chief Constable Paul Kennedy, of North Yorkshire Police, said: “The findings of Operation Hibiscus clearly suggest that there would have been sufficient evidence from 35 individual victims for the Crown Prosecution Service to consider criminal charges against Peter Jaconelli and Jimmy Savile, had they been alive today.
“The available information indicates that, historically, the police missed opportunities to look into allegations against these men whilst they were still alive.
“Today, North Yorkshire Police apologises to the victims who made the brave decision to come forward during the past 18 months.”

very long article continues at link : http://nyenquirer.uk/operation-hibiscus-truth-not-whole-truth/

 

[brogdale]

http://nyenquirer.uk/operation-hibiscus-truth-not-whole-truth/

North Yorkshire Police statement: Operation Hibiscus

For some time now, despite intimidation and threats from the Police and Scarborough Borough Council, the North Yorks Enquirer has been pursuing the truth.

We have consistently alleged that there was a major paedophile-ring operating in Scarborough from 1947 until about 2009 and that it included Jimmy Savile and Peter Jaconelli, the Mayor of Scarborough. We have alleged that his ring was the most successful paedophile ring in British criminal history, was connected to the Westminster paedophile ring, operated far beyond North Yorkshire, had international connections and was involved in trafficking and enticing young people into prostitution. It was successful because Jaconelli was protected by North Yorkshire Police, because he was a Scarborough Borough Councillor, County Councillor, millionaire businessman, Mayor, leading Scarborough Citizen who was a School Governor and ran the local Judo Club.

Operation Hibiscus, the investigation into these allegations, has now reported. North Yorkshire Police has now been forced to publicly admit that the most successful and longest-running paedophile-ring in British criminal history peacefully co-existed with North Yorkshire Police in Scarborough for forty years. It included Britain`s most prolific rapists and sex offenders Jimmy Savile and Peter Jaconelli, was connected to the Westminster paedophile-ring and operated openly with the full knowledge of North Yorkshire Police. The Force’s failure to arrest any of the members over the course of fifty years of relatively open offending, despite numerous complaints and reports, was inexcusable, a national scandal and deeply corrupt.
We believe that, over the course of its existence from 1947 until about 2009, the ring had thousands of victims and was much bigger and worse than the Rotherham or Rochdale rings.


North Yorkshire Police have today published this statement.

Press Release Operation Hibiscus:

Investigation into allegations of historic sexual abuse by the late Scarborough mayor Peter Jaconelli and Jimmy Savile
North Yorkshire Police can today [Thursday 18 December 2014] confirm the findings of an investigation into allegations of historic sexual abuse made against the late Scarborough mayor Peter Jaconelli and Jimmy Savile.
Operation Hibiscus began on 14 February 2014. It was instigated following the broadcast of the regional TV news programme Inside Out, which prompted 35 people to come forward with reports of historic sexual abuse by Jaconelli and Savile.

32 of the cases related to Jaconelli for reported offences that occurred between1958 and 1998, and five to Savile that occurred between 1979 and 1988.
Each individual case was investigated by a team of experienced detectives. The victims have been directed to, and offered the support from, specialist victim support agencies.
The investigations have now come to a conclusion.

Sufficient evidence has been uncovered to suggest that, had they been alive today, files would have been submitted for consideration by the Crown Prosecution Service regarding potential criminal charges against Peter Jaconelli and Jimmy Savile, relating to young people.
However, it should be noted that it has not been possible to pursue those lines of enquiry which would have involved interviews with the individuals concerned, during which they may have disputed the allegations against them.

The reported offences linked to Jaconelli ranged from indecent assault, inciting a child to engage in sexual activity, gross indecency and rape.
For Savile, the reported offences ranged from sexual assault (or indecent assault under current law) to rape.
The investigation team has contacted the victims to explain the findings of the inquiry, and to ensure that they have continued access to all available support as victims of sexual abuse.

Assistant Chief Constable Paul Kennedy, of North Yorkshire Police, said: “The findings of Operation Hibiscus clearly suggest that there would have been sufficient evidence from 35 individual victims for the Crown Prosecution Service to consider criminal charges against Peter Jaconelli and Jimmy Savile, had they been alive today.
“The available information indicates that, historically, the police missed opportunities to look into allegations against these men whilst they were still alive.
“Today, North Yorkshire Police apologises to the victims who made the brave decision to come forward during the past 18 months.”

very long article continues at link : http://nyenquirer.uk/operation-hibiscus-truth-not-whole-truth/

Thorough reporting, but summed-up by the conclusion...

The full truth has yet to come out. Nor will it, so long as North Yorkshire Police is continually allowed to investigate itself.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sorry but how does that actually work?

If you are giving credence/authority to historical victims of abuse won't that empower current/recent victims?

Placing the accounts of the abused in a credible centre stage (whenever that abuse occurred be it yesterday or in the last century) is vital in tackling the individual cases of abuse and exposing cultures of abuse (be they in families, communities or organisations).

Louis MacNeice

Absolutely! How do you learn what to look for/what to avoid/how to shape the best practice possible for child protection if you don't analyse previous errors, whether single individual cases, or massive clusterfucks.
Yet again, Santayana's maxim is right.

 

[nino_savatte]

If you're looking for conspiracies and sharp practices, that should raise an eyebrow or two...

Huh? There is a conspiracy and because I say there's a conspiracy, it doesn't necessarily make me a conspiraloon.

 

[free spirit]

That's not even remotely what I'm suggesting. The Tories (especially Cameron) want this story/issue to drop off the radar - so to speak. It suits them (and their pals in MI5/6) to have this kicked into the long grass.

I can see why you might take that point of view but I think that you're mistaken.

The overarching inquiry as well as the underlying police investigations are, on balance, probably politically expedient for the Tories (and maybe all the political parties) in the run-up to the next general election to the extent that they serve as a distraction technique.

Those named and proven so far, Cyril Smith and Peter Hayman, were not Tory MPs in the first instance and, even were some to be discovered, it would be eminently possible, though decidedly risky, for the current Tory party to draw a line of distinction between them then and them now, possibly even profiting by assuming the mantle of being truth-telling moral crusaders reforming British institutions guided by a "British Values" moral compass...bullshit ad infinitum etc...

The best method of kicking something into the long grass is to announce a major inquiry with terms of reference that don't really allow it to fully cover all the worst aspects of the situation, but broad enough to mean that no other inquiry will ever be held, and no actual power of arrest or prosecution, then use various means to delay the start of that inquiry until after the public outrage has moved on a bit, then allow it to fizzle out and eventually report that yes some bad stuff happened, but it was all a long time ago and things have changed now, and maybe recommend a bit of tinkering at the edges, and find a few high profile scapegoats such as those from the entertainment industry, former pop stars and the like.

So Theresa May is playing a blinder here in defense of the establishment.

 

[elbows]

Except the inquiries aren't getting in the way of the police investigations, and the prosecution of celebrities really hasn't reduced the pressure.