How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?
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nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I don't know and the article doesn't say.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
We the people.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Catching up on other reported stuff of the last week or so that I don't think got a mention in this thread yet.
The Lord Janner investigation is far from dead, two sources have told Exaro in this December 8th article that it has restarted, and witnesses are being reinterviewed. Several authorities appear to have decided that they can't just leave it alone, and that if they have enough evidence for prosecution but Janners lawyers claim he is unfit to stand trial, they will insist on an independent medical assessment.
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5424/lord-janner-faces-re-opened-police-probe-into-child-sex-abuse
The Lord Janner investigation is far from dead, two sources have told Exaro in this December 8th article that it has restarted, and witnesses are being reinterviewed. Several authorities appear to have decided that they can't just leave it alone, and that if they have enough evidence for prosecution but Janners lawyers claim he is unfit to stand trial, they will insist on an independent medical assessment.
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5424/lord-janner-faces-re-opened-police-probe-into-child-sex-abuse
elbows
Well-Known Member
In this December 5th article regarding operation Pallial, we learn that some victims of North Wales care home abuse are receiving letters from government lawyers saying that so far ten deceased people would have been prosecuted if they were still alive (out of 120 potential suspects, 40 of whom are dead).
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/operation-pallial-ten-suspected-paedophiles-8229876
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/operation-pallial-ten-suspected-paedophiles-8229876
elbows
Well-Known Member
Probably because it and the original April story are Daily Mail stories, I think I had completely missed this Elm Guest House angle:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tor-guest-house-used-VIP-paedophile-ring.html
Like some other aspects of Elm Guest house and elsewhere, we can see issues of gay age of consent and sex work complicate the broader picture of these places/events. I suppose the main way to deal with that properly is the very specific details of each case of potential abuse, and thats a level of detail we don't have in too many cases yet, and wouldn't expect to have at this stage beyond those victims who have given detailed horrific accounts to the media.
But obviously with this particular story, if it goes anywhere we have the link to other revelations of recent years regarding police undercover work.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tor-guest-house-used-VIP-paedophile-ring.html
Like some other aspects of Elm Guest house and elsewhere, we can see issues of gay age of consent and sex work complicate the broader picture of these places/events. I suppose the main way to deal with that properly is the very specific details of each case of potential abuse, and thats a level of detail we don't have in too many cases yet, and wouldn't expect to have at this stage beyond those victims who have given detailed horrific accounts to the media.
But obviously with this particular story, if it goes anywhere we have the link to other revelations of recent years regarding police undercover work.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Basically just says the lead investigating copper believes the claim made by Nick.
76 year old from Wrexham charged with 14 offences as a result of pallial - link i have says 14 further charges - and that the offences were 2010-2014. Not sure if those dates are a mistake.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
BBC R5 also leading with the story...also mentioning "military establishments".
tbh that Met statement, if reported correctly, does seem extraordinary...
That does seem astonishingly prejudicial.
If I were inclined to the vast cover-up/conspiracy theory of events I'd be interested to know a bit more about the circumstances of that statement...
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yeah.
The telegraph report uses a slightly different quote...
Still, apparently, surprisingly prejudicial language.
e2a : BBC report inc interview with McDonald
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Ok, so maybe just an example of poor reporting of a poorly judged statement.
Still, if there is a cover up of various scandals that is about to be revealed, it'll be interesting to observe the precise way the veil is drawn back.
With the antiquity of the allegations and the probable lack of hard, contemporaneous evidence, it will be very difficult to prosecute anyone. Statements like that won't make it any easier.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
BBC R4 leading with it. I have a very bad feeling about this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30534235
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30534235
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Condom Face "dismissive" of Historical Sex Abuse Claims according to Sky News.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
If there is any "schism" it will revolve around how best to limit the damage from the inevitable, managed reveal.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Indeed. They're circling the wagons... again.
Again, on the assumption that there is a wide range of stuff to come out, there are ways of revealing it that offer the opportunity for some comparatively good PR/brand distinction.
Very risky game to play tho...
elbows
Well-Known Member
I don't have a bad feeling about it. Its a desperate plea for more info. It suggests that not enough people and info have emerged since 'Nick' first made his pleas for people to come forward via the media.
Personally I'd place the fear that badly chosen words by the police might scupper criminal proceedings very far down my list of concerns as it relates to both high-profile child sex abuse prosecutions in general and any specific Dolphin Square instances of such. The biggest threat of it being scuppered would come from a failure of people to heed these appeals for information, and so although I am dismayed that the police clearly still haven't got enough victims and info, I see it as a good thing that they are making the appeal now with such strong emphasis on believing victims.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
I hope you are right. I see the appeal as genuine. Just that it can be blown off course by malign influences. For anyone who hasn't followed these stories it's very hard to believe these claims. That disbelief can easily be harnessed.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I suspect that there is a little more flexibility at certain specific key stages of police work, on occasions where altering the tone of the message is seen as crucial.
For example, when a young person goes missing, the police may decide to release all sorts of information about the possible victim, perpetrator, and various other details, that we might otherwise only expect to learn during or after a trial, or not at all when it comes to some privacy/protection of minors issues. Eg people that could be named by all and sundry, suddenly un-nameable in the press.
I don't have too hard a time wondering whether this might not also apply to pleas for potential victims to come forwards at some vital stage of an investigation. And since one of the historical phenomenon often seen as having being at work in prior coverups and failures to prosecute serial sex offenders was the failure to believe victims, its no surprise that any mistake they may make on this front at this stage of the game is likely to be in the opposite direction.
It is entirely understandable that people should be cynical in the face of a massive correction on this front, but its been one of the most obvious and sustained phenomenon in the post-Savile era, and although I would not go quite so far as to take it purely at face value, I believe it to be genuine on at least some levels. How far that genuine desire reaches we are not yet really able to conclude, but attempts to manage the situation won't put me off cheering on occasions where fresh milestones are reached.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I tend to see any malign influences as operating on different levels to this stuff.
For example I only really expect to see disbelief being harnessed successfully if there really don't end up being enough victims coming forwards to attempt any prosecutions.
And plenty of the malign influences that can supper things at this earlier stage are ghosts, echoes from the past. The damage done to victims by the abuse itself, the fear that power can project, both on a personal abuse of power level and from institutions and structures of power. The numerous ways this can make victims unable to talk to the police in 2014, including being dead. And of course I cannot utterly forget the possibility of the victims we seek not existing, for its still almost as hard today as it was on day one of this thread to judge the scale of elite abuse. A picture of wider abuse by those on lower levels of power has always been somewhat easier to grasp, and thats proving to be the case again this time around. These echo are one of the reasons I'm not quick to assume any fresh cover-ups, since in most cases so far its been almost impossible to judge the age of any bad smells - fresh coverup or the unalterable present-day consequences of historical coverups? If there is genuine will at various levels of the state to correct this stuff, they too have a battle on their hands in dealing with these consequences of the past, so I'm entirely unsurprised to hear the police overcompensating for past sins.
Betsy
Well-Known Member
Saw this on Twitter tonight...had a quick search on here but neither John Oliver's name or that of Mark Sedwill came up so hope it hasn't already been posted....
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/all-about/the-oval
Home Office ordered to answer questions on missing Westminster child abuse files from Guildford man John Oliver
The Home Office must respond to the request of Guildford resident John Oliver by the middle of January next year
A Freedom of Information (FoI) request submitted by a Guildford resident about 114 missing files detailing allegations of historic child abuse in Westminster must be answered by the Home Office.
John Oliver wrote to the department on July 8 this year asking about the files, on the same day its top civil servant, Mark Sedwill, told the Home Affairs Select Committee that he did not know if other files were also missing.
The 114 files contained allegations of abuse at Westminster, but during his select committee appearance Mr Sedwill said he was unable to confirm if other files next to the missing child abuse allegations were also missing or not.
“I couldn’t believe that one of the most important administrators in the country hadn’t thought to have this checked – something that the most junior member of his clerical staff would do as a matter of course," said Mr Oliver.
Mr Sedwill said he was “concerned” but insisted people “should not assume there was anything sinister” about the missing files - and confessed that he did not know the titles or contents of the documents, which dated from 1979 to 1999.
Despite sending the FoI request on July 8, Mr Oliver had still not received a response by the end of September.
It was revealed on Thursday that the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) - which monitors the operation of the Freedom of Information Act - had issued a formal decision ordering the Home Office to respond.
Mr Oliver reacted by saying: “I am grateful for the help of the Commissioner’s Office. Despite [Home Secretary Theresa] May’s assertion that no stone will be left unturned, I’m beginning to wonder if they would rather the stones were buried."
As well as the FoI request, Guildford MP Anne Milton has also written to the minister of state at the Home Office with responsibility for child abuse matters, Mike Penning.
Despite contacting him in early November, she too has not had a response.
The ICO decision requires the Home Office to respond by January 13 2015.
Failure to comply may result in the ICO sending written certification of this fact to the High Court and it being dealt with as a contempt of court.
A Home Office spokesperson said: “We are aware of the ruling by the Information Commissioner’s Office and will respond within the given period.”
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/home-office-ordered-answer-questions-8274231
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/all-about/the-oval
Home Office ordered to answer questions on missing Westminster child abuse files from Guildford man John Oliver
The Home Office must respond to the request of Guildford resident John Oliver by the middle of January next year
A Freedom of Information (FoI) request submitted by a Guildford resident about 114 missing files detailing allegations of historic child abuse in Westminster must be answered by the Home Office.
John Oliver wrote to the department on July 8 this year asking about the files, on the same day its top civil servant, Mark Sedwill, told the Home Affairs Select Committee that he did not know if other files were also missing.
The 114 files contained allegations of abuse at Westminster, but during his select committee appearance Mr Sedwill said he was unable to confirm if other files next to the missing child abuse allegations were also missing or not.
“I couldn’t believe that one of the most important administrators in the country hadn’t thought to have this checked – something that the most junior member of his clerical staff would do as a matter of course," said Mr Oliver.
Mr Sedwill said he was “concerned” but insisted people “should not assume there was anything sinister” about the missing files - and confessed that he did not know the titles or contents of the documents, which dated from 1979 to 1999.
Despite sending the FoI request on July 8, Mr Oliver had still not received a response by the end of September.
It was revealed on Thursday that the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) - which monitors the operation of the Freedom of Information Act - had issued a formal decision ordering the Home Office to respond.
Mr Oliver reacted by saying: “I am grateful for the help of the Commissioner’s Office. Despite [Home Secretary Theresa] May’s assertion that no stone will be left unturned, I’m beginning to wonder if they would rather the stones were buried."
As well as the FoI request, Guildford MP Anne Milton has also written to the minister of state at the Home Office with responsibility for child abuse matters, Mike Penning.
Despite contacting him in early November, she too has not had a response.
The ICO decision requires the Home Office to respond by January 13 2015.
Failure to comply may result in the ICO sending written certification of this fact to the High Court and it being dealt with as a contempt of court.
A Home Office spokesperson said: “We are aware of the ruling by the Information Commissioner’s Office and will respond within the given period.”
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/home-office-ordered-answer-questions-8274231
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
...this is real FOAF stuff but I met up with an ex colleague yesterday, I showed him the Evening Standard front-page
....he said one of his co-worker's dad's was a policeman & working on the case.....and his view was ( paraphrasing ) ...its all bullshit, there are people coming forward but timewasters and that it was a massive diversion ( 80 officers or so ) from the stuff happening now...
...that's all 3-4th hand ofcourse, paraphrased but the gist anyway fwiw...
....he said one of his co-worker's dad's was a policeman & working on the case.....and his view was ( paraphrasing ) ...its all bullshit, there are people coming forward but timewasters and that it was a massive diversion ( 80 officers or so ) from the stuff happening now...
...that's all 3-4th hand ofcourse, paraphrased but the gist anyway fwiw...
...this is real FOAF stuff but I met up with an ex colleague yesterday, I showed him the Evening Standard front-page
....he said one of his co-worker's dad's was a policeman & working on the case.....and his view was ( paraphrasing ) ...its all bullshit, there are people coming forward but timewasters and that it was a massive diversion ( 80 officers or so ) from the stuff happening now...
...that's all 3-4th hand ofcourse, paraphrased but the gist anyway fwiw...
A large number of people are certainly benefitting indirectly from all these inquiries.
Simply put, focusing on historical child abuse distracts from present failures and, in a worse case scenario, may help perpetuate them.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Sorry but how does that actually work?
If you are giving credence/authority to historical victims of abuse won't that empower current/recent victims?
Placing the accounts of the abused in a credible centre stage (whenever that abuse occurred be it yesterday or in the last century) is vital in tackling the individual cases of abuse and exposing cultures of abuse (be they in families, communities or organisations).
Louis MacNeice
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