How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?
- Thread starter free spirit
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
May wants to disband the over arching panel. I.e stopped.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
police forces are regional, so the regional police are investigating the regional activities, but it's only really the overarching inquiry that's actually in a position to investigate the entire thing, the cover up angle, the national and international links between the regional activities, the involvement of MI5, special branch etc.
Other than maybe the MET, but the chances of them fairly investigating their own historic coverups are fairly slim.
Besides, I wasn't saying it was guaranteed to be successful, but that would seem to be the play that's happening here. Throw the celebrities to the wolves, botch the setting up of an inquiry so the story becomes who got appointed to head it as opposed to what's being investigated, let the inquiry plod along for a bit, then apparently pull the plug on it just as it's about to start a series of regional meetings with abuse survivors and representatives.
This bit from the terms of reference for the inquiry is pretty much the key bit for me. Dig too deep, threaten anyone or any organisation too big that the police / CPS have declined to prosecute, and they can be firmly told that they're exceeding their remit.
So individuals who are accused by victims during this inquiry of actually carrying out abuse directly will be investigated by the police, but those who facilitated the cover up(s) can rest pretty easy, the inquiry may recommend improvements to how things were done, but not specifically investigate them or prosecute them as potential criminals for their activities in covering this up.
If for example they got more information indicating that MI5 or special branch were involved in covering up these crimes on a systemic level, and started to follow that line of inquiry they'd soon get told to wind their necks in and stick to their remit.
But no other inquiry will ever be established that will specifically investigate those allegations.
And so the inquiry itself becomes window dressing to hide the establishment cover up that's still going on, while the government can claim to have done what it can to investigate the claims via establishing this inquiry.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Is this right?
In fact after reading the rest, no need for an inquiry anyway. This thread is pretty much dead.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
well, it's not right as in there were alternative options, it could have been led by the national crime agency for example, or there could have been an inquiry with the specific terms of reference to actually allow it to investigate and assign liability to / prosecute those agencies and individuals found to have been involved in covering this up / facilitating it.
eta or maybe the IPCC, or possibly another police force being brought in to investigate the MET / special branch's role in this.
But if it's not right as in what's actually happening now, feel free to point to the counter evidence / explain your point.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I do not have to. You claimed it was fact. I'm not ever doing this juvenile ABC with anyone ever again after this. You make a claim, you support it. No one else need do anything to undermine it.
But it seems even asking you to support this claim (or this type of claim) is too much.
That's why the thread is dead.
But it seems even asking you to support this claim (or this type of claim) is too much.
That's why the thread is dead.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
which bit?
The bit about regional police forces carrying out regional investigations? Surely you're not questioning the basic role of regional jurisdictions for police forces in the UK are you?
Obviously they can collaborate with other police forces to have joint investigations etc. but ultimately that would involve the met investigating the london angle, which means the MET investigating the MET's past failings if they were actually to investigate that angle on the situation.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I can't quote it directly due to formatting errors, but I've just seen that the panel are publishing their meeting minutes.
They seem to have spent the first 3 meetings without a chair, having a rotating facilitator instead, and taking advice from the HIllsborough inquiry, and the Rotherham inquiry, and seeking evidence from a similar Australian inquiry, basically taking advice on how best to approach the inquiry, and setting up the series of regional open meetings that began last week in Manchester, and are planned for the first couple of months of next year.
In the absence of the chair, they seem to be taking it fairly seriously and taking the right sort of advice on how to go about things, and have appointed Professor Jay, who led the Rotherham inquiry, to be part of a sub group to determine the methodology they need to use.
Interestingly, the first reference point for that sub group is to
1 - An exercise to define institutions which should be considered by the inquiry.
So in the absence of an establishment figure as chair, this inquiry actually looks to be keen to establish it's own working methodology, and determine which organisations it should be investigating. Maybe it is capable of developing some legs and doing some useful work if it carries on in this vein.
I wonder what could be motivating Theresa May to consider disbanding the panel.
They seem to have spent the first 3 meetings without a chair, having a rotating facilitator instead, and taking advice from the HIllsborough inquiry, and the Rotherham inquiry, and seeking evidence from a similar Australian inquiry, basically taking advice on how best to approach the inquiry, and setting up the series of regional open meetings that began last week in Manchester, and are planned for the first couple of months of next year.
In the absence of the chair, they seem to be taking it fairly seriously and taking the right sort of advice on how to go about things, and have appointed Professor Jay, who led the Rotherham inquiry, to be part of a sub group to determine the methodology they need to use.
Interestingly, the first reference point for that sub group is to
1 - An exercise to define institutions which should be considered by the inquiry.
So in the absence of an establishment figure as chair, this inquiry actually looks to be keen to establish it's own working methodology, and determine which organisations it should be investigating. Maybe it is capable of developing some legs and doing some useful work if it carries on in this vein.
I wonder what could be motivating Theresa May to consider disbanding the panel.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
free spirit
more tea vicar?
yes, and what specifically are you querying?
There are 2 sections to that quote, if you could at least state which of the 2 sections you're specifically querying it'd help to know what you're getting at.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
There is one section. It's wrong. Entire.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I'd forgotten how much of an irritating prick you are to debate with.
if you have a point to make spit it out ffs.
how is it wrong to state that regionalised police forces aren't in a position to investigate an long running national high level paedophile network and cover up that appears to at least have involved special branch, and probably MI5 (or some members of each) amongst others, and allegedly reached to some of the highest levels of power in government.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
With regard to the overarching stuff- blagger - and May caught up with you today - making all your assumptions dust:
free spirit
more tea vicar?
According to those minutes, there is some form of national police co-ordination lead for child protection and abuse investigation, led by the Chief Constable of Norfolk, but I can't find any more info about this, and I think it's more of a formalised method of different forces collaborating on cases that spread across more than one forces area.
There is also an inquiry that actually does have proper legal powers under the auspices of the childrens commissioner, but that inquiry specifically only focuses on abuse within families. I'd not realised the children's commissioner had those sorts of legal powers, so that could have been an alternative route for this inquiry to have taken.
And there is CEOPs within the NCA, that really has the remit to work at a national level, and has done so in co-ordinating national arrests from it's work on internet based child abuse, but AFAIK they're not involved in co-ordinating this investigation into historic abuse.
There is also an inquiry that actually does have proper legal powers under the auspices of the childrens commissioner, but that inquiry specifically only focuses on abuse within families. I'd not realised the children's commissioner had those sorts of legal powers, so that could have been an alternative route for this inquiry to have taken.
And there is CEOPs within the NCA, that really has the remit to work at a national level, and has done so in co-ordinating national arrests from it's work on internet based child abuse, but AFAIK they're not involved in co-ordinating this investigation into historic abuse.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I'm still none the wiser wtf you're on about.
Have you got a problem with actually explaining yourself?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Oh god - reluctant as i am to, but here we go
free spirit
more tea vicar?
Thanks for that enlightening post, it really helped to progress the discussion.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Look at the words. The words that you posted.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I know what I posted, I don't know what you're getting at due to not being a mind reader, and you being shit at ever explaining yourself.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
btw, you missed this bit in your quote.
The MET have led on operation Yewtree, which did involve other forces as well, and operation Fernbridge, and a couple of other spin off investigations.
Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but as yet I'm not aware of them investigating the role special branch allegedly played in the long running cover ups, intimidation of witnesses and those investigating it. Though they are showing signs of investigating some of those higher up the food chain than I'd expected them to, I'm still sceptical that the MET won't close ranks, and shut these lines of inquiry down if they reach too high - and 2 heads of those investigations in a row have ended up resigning from those roles, which raises the question of whether they jumped or were pushed for overstepping the line.
The loss of 2 heads of those inquiries doesn't really point to them having the full backing of the MET hierarchy in how far those investigations are being pushed.
The MET have led on operation Yewtree, which did involve other forces as well, and operation Fernbridge, and a couple of other spin off investigations.
Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but as yet I'm not aware of them investigating the role special branch allegedly played in the long running cover ups, intimidation of witnesses and those investigating it. Though they are showing signs of investigating some of those higher up the food chain than I'd expected them to, I'm still sceptical that the MET won't close ranks, and shut these lines of inquiry down if they reach too high - and 2 heads of those investigations in a row have ended up resigning from those roles, which raises the question of whether they jumped or were pushed for overstepping the line.
The loss of 2 heads of those inquiries doesn't really point to them having the full backing of the MET hierarchy in how far those investigations are being pushed.
We have an adversarial system, not an inquisitorial one and, IMO, we're all the better for it.
The idea of an inquiry firmly establishing criminal liability is a bit scary from my point of view and it's rather worrying that you think that might be a good thing.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
criminal or civil liability.
Half the people are dead so will never be able to be tried in court, and similarly the organisations that enabled this to go on for so long without being discovered are very unlikely ever to face a criminal prosecution for it by the CPS (the CPS being one of those organisations that could itself be held liable potentially).
If the inquiry were able to assign liability to those organisations, then the victims would at least be in a position to claim compensation from them. Without this, it would be left to the victims themselves to fund a civil legal action that would actually have to do all the investigation and prove that liability themselves in court, against the likes of the MET. That's a very unequal fight.
eta - this inquiry also had no legal power to compel witnesses to attend AFAIK, whereas for example, the investigation into abuse within families under the children's commissioner's authority had the threat of 6 month jail terms and large fines for anyone who refused to appear before them.
That is a massive difference, and as there was already the precedent set for such an inquiry to be held in that way under the auspices of the children's commissioner, it begs the question as to why this route wasn't followed this time if they wanted the inquiry to really be taken seriously.
Exaro site seems down right now (17.00 Sunday). http://www.exaronews.com/
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
......the Savile case has prompted 2 inquiries....
the IPCC seems to be following the ignore the wood, focus on the trees and ideally individual rotten apples model :
....I'm not totally clear exactly what triggers them to act & how proactive they are, the statement linked below refers to both :
The IPCC directed Sussex Police to refer the conduct of two of the officers late last year.
This investigation follows a referral from North Yorkshire Police
IPCC update statement on investigations related to Jimmy Savile
Sep 19, 2014
https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/ipcc-update-statement-investigations-related-jimmy-savile
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has a number of investigations in progress related to Jimmy Savile, concerning different police forces.
Metropolitan Police Service
The IPCC requested the MPS review its Savile-related material and consider whether any matters raised in the HMIC Savile report published in 2013 should be recorded and referred to the IPCC as conduct matters against individual officers.
....secondly there was also the HM Inspectors of Constabulary Savile report ……Mistakes were made…that appeared to have the more overarching remit…
https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...intelligence-material-concerning-jimmy-savile
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Theresa May): On 7 November 2012 I formally commissioned Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) to conduct a review to assess police knowledge of and response to the historical allegations made against Jimmy Savile and related individuals, and potentially into similar allegations against other individuals.
In particular, I asked that the review establish clearly which forces received reports or allegations in respect of Savile and related individuals prior to the launch of Operation Yewtree on 5 October 2012. For each of those forces, I asked HMIC to review the extent to which the allegations were robustly investigated and whether there were any police failings in doing so.
HMIC conducted enquiries in all 43 police forces in England and Wales, and liaised with HMIC Scotland and the States of Jersey Police.
…..Special Branch is also regional….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Branch#United_Kingdom
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5...ions-ex-police-to-submit-dossier-to-met-chief
.....Hogan-Howe did at least show a willingness to bang the table with "6" over the Gareth Williams case...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-spy-gareth-williams-death-probe-7722839.html
…fuck….this is a MUST READ….direct from that private ex-police-only forum….
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5434/police-discuss-submitting-statements-on-paedophile-cover-up
.”….that boy that was run over was alleged to be Jason Swift…”
....glass tables...sounds like we're back to Boothby / Kray territory...
the IPCC seems to be following the ignore the wood, focus on the trees and ideally individual rotten apples model :
....I'm not totally clear exactly what triggers them to act & how proactive they are, the statement linked below refers to both :
The IPCC directed Sussex Police to refer the conduct of two of the officers late last year.
This investigation follows a referral from North Yorkshire Police
IPCC update statement on investigations related to Jimmy Savile
Sep 19, 2014
https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/ipcc-update-statement-investigations-related-jimmy-savile
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has a number of investigations in progress related to Jimmy Savile, concerning different police forces.
Metropolitan Police Service
The IPCC requested the MPS review its Savile-related material and consider whether any matters raised in the HMIC Savile report published in 2013 should be recorded and referred to the IPCC as conduct matters against individual officers.
....secondly there was also the HM Inspectors of Constabulary Savile report ……Mistakes were made…that appeared to have the more overarching remit…
https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...intelligence-material-concerning-jimmy-savile
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Theresa May): On 7 November 2012 I formally commissioned Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) to conduct a review to assess police knowledge of and response to the historical allegations made against Jimmy Savile and related individuals, and potentially into similar allegations against other individuals.
In particular, I asked that the review establish clearly which forces received reports or allegations in respect of Savile and related individuals prior to the launch of Operation Yewtree on 5 October 2012. For each of those forces, I asked HMIC to review the extent to which the allegations were robustly investigated and whether there were any police failings in doing so.
HMIC conducted enquiries in all 43 police forces in England and Wales, and liaised with HMIC Scotland and the States of Jersey Police.
…..Special Branch is also regional….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Branch#United_Kingdom
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5...ions-ex-police-to-submit-dossier-to-met-chief
.....Hogan-Howe did at least show a willingness to bang the table with "6" over the Gareth Williams case...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-spy-gareth-williams-death-probe-7722839.html
…fuck….this is a MUST READ….direct from that private ex-police-only forum….
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5434/police-discuss-submitting-statements-on-paedophile-cover-up
.”….that boy that was run over was alleged to be Jason Swift…”
....glass tables...sounds like we're back to Boothby / Kray territory...
Last edited:
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
Interesting questions in the FOI request. Be interesting to hear their response. Just about the only report of this i can find is on the GetSurrey website.
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
...well til after the election ( no interim report before then ) but if its reconstituted with proper powers to summons & testimony given under oath that's a good thing you would hope...
...and re John Mann throwing his dossier into the ring....
Five Westminster paedophile rings probed by Scotland Yard
By David Barrett, Home Affairs Correspondent 5:32PM GMT 21 Dec 2014
Police are investigating claims that up to five paedophile rings operated at the heart of Westminster with the involvement of “highly influential” politicians.
Mr Mann, who has spent months sifting evidence from members of the public, met Scotland Yard and handed over evidence on 22 politicians, including three serving MPs and three members of the House of Lords.
Although some on the list are now dead, it also contains the names of other figures who are still alive but no longer active in the Westminster scene, Mr Mann said.
“There are at least five paedophile rings which involved MPs,” he said.
“Each of them involved at least one MP, some involved more, and these were groups of people who knew about the activities of one another.
“In some cases I believe they committed abuse together.”
Fourteen of the individuals identified by Mr Mann were Conservative politicians, five were Labour and three were from other parties.
Thirteen former ministers were among the list, Mr Mann said.
continued : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...paedophile-rings-probed-by-Scotland-Yard.html
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free spirit
more tea vicar?
out of 22 politicians alleged to be involved, 13 were cabinet ministers?
That strikes me as an incredibly high percentage of the politicians being cabinet ministers.
Also if true, that's an incredibly high percentage of the 56 cabinet members in thatchers cabinet, or I guess maybe that's including cabinets before thatcher?
That strikes me as an incredibly high percentage of the politicians being cabinet ministers.
Also if true, that's an incredibly high percentage of the 56 cabinet members in thatchers cabinet, or I guess maybe that's including cabinets before thatcher?
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
EXCLUSIVE: ‘I was warned off’ says detective involved in historic paedophile probe
A FORMER police chief told how his superiors tried to stop a major paedophile investigation, warning: “Don’t open the box, you will never get the lid back on.”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/54...phile-ring-investigation-detective-warned-off
Retired Detective Chief Superintendent Roger Gaspar said Scotland Yard top brass feared what Operation Hedgerow would unearth when it was launched in August 1987.
He told the Sunday Express he was denied extra resources and was told to “deal with what he had” throughout the two-year inquiry.
Mr Gaspar, who now lives on the Essex coast, also suggested a paedophile unit should be set up to investigate abuse in the late 1980s, but the request was turned down.
The operation centred on a north London paedophile ring in Kilburn and dealt with 653 claims by 150 boys and young men.
Over 20 were arrested and 14 men convicted.
According to reports at the time the ring was “used by highly placed civil servants and well known public figures”, but police lacked the “evidence or manpower to pursue them in court”.
continued at link ; http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/54...phile-ring-investigation-detective-warned-off
A FORMER police chief told how his superiors tried to stop a major paedophile investigation, warning: “Don’t open the box, you will never get the lid back on.”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/54...phile-ring-investigation-detective-warned-off
Retired Detective Chief Superintendent Roger Gaspar said Scotland Yard top brass feared what Operation Hedgerow would unearth when it was launched in August 1987.
He told the Sunday Express he was denied extra resources and was told to “deal with what he had” throughout the two-year inquiry.
Mr Gaspar, who now lives on the Essex coast, also suggested a paedophile unit should be set up to investigate abuse in the late 1980s, but the request was turned down.
The operation centred on a north London paedophile ring in Kilburn and dealt with 653 claims by 150 boys and young men.
Over 20 were arrested and 14 men convicted.
According to reports at the time the ring was “used by highly placed civil servants and well known public figures”, but police lacked the “evidence or manpower to pursue them in court”.
continued at link ; http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/54...phile-ring-investigation-detective-warned-off
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