How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[Lurdan]

Oh there is definitely lots of interesting stuff to come. In one way I don't see any enormous mystery about the nature of Janner's participation in the Kirkwood inquiry. A week after the end of Frank Beck's trial Leicester Police had publicly announced that "on the advice of the Crown Prosecution Service" no further action was to be taken against Janner. (My guess is that the CPS had made their decision before Beck's trial and that the Police only made an announcement at all because of the coverage of Janner's speeches in Parliament). The Kirkwood Inquiry into Beck was scarcely likely to act in such a way as to re-open the issue.

But in another way it precisely draws attention to the issues the Goddard Inquiry will itself face over allegations involving living people who haven't been charged, and who may not currently be the subject of any criminal investigation. How they deal with the Kirkwood Inquiry's handling of Janner will be an interesting opportunity to see how they think Inquiry's should act over such issues.

 

[Lurdan]

The Goddard Inquiry held two preliminary hearings today, the first regarding it's investigation into CSA in the Anglican Church, (transcript here in PDF format) and the second regarding its investigation into Cambridge House, Knowl View and Rochdale (transcript here).

Both hearings were largely concerned with procedural matters and in both cases further preliminary hearings are anticipated to resolve these. Unlike the Janner preliminary hearing last week the anticipated future timetable was not clearly set out.

The Anglican Church Inquiry will look at CSA and child protection policies within the Church of England and the Church in Wales, and the adequacy of the reviews both churches conducted into historic abuse. As specific case studies it will consider the Diocese of Chichester and the case of Peter Ball, a former bishop of the diocese.

From the opening statement by Ben Emmerson, Senior Counsel to the Inquiry

The evidence which is so far available suggests many instances of sexual abuse by priests and others in positions of authority within the Anglican Church over a long period of time and that there have been serious failures on the part of those within the Church to acknowledge, prevent and remedy such abuse. There is evidence that abuse has occurred and continues to occur in religious schools and within parishes. There is also reason to believe that the Church of England's own scrutiny of the issue in the past, the past cases review, which was carried out in 2007 to 2009, provided a picture that was less than comprehensive.

The Diocese of Chichester is one of 42 dioceses within the Church of England and covers most of East and West Sussex and part of Kent. The Bishop of Lewes, the position that Peter Ball occupied from 1984 until 1992, is one of the bishops in the diocesan area. The diocese is notable for a high reported rate of child sexual abuse complaints against a clergy and for numerous examples of apparent failures of reporting and safeguarding.

The problem of child sexual abuse within the diocese reached deep into Chichester Cathedral and its associated institutions. A large number of clerics in the diocese and others, including Terrance Banks, the head steward of Chichester Cathedral, have been convicted of child sexual abuse. The Anglican Church recently settled a claim in respect of an allegation by George Bell, as you have heard, who was Bishop of Chichester from 1929 until 1958.

(...)

The history of Chichester raises concerns over the accuracy of the Church of England's Past Cases Review. That review reported in 2010 that diocesan scrutiny of 40,747 files disclosed just 13 cases which required formal action. It did not pick up on Peter Ball's offending or on the history of allegations against other clerics within the diocese, including Roy Cotton, Robert Coles and Gordon Rideout. These cases cast considerable doubt over the assertion made by the Church in the wake of its review that it had "thoroughly re-examined" allegations and taken "appropriate action".

(...)

The case of Peter Ball illustrates broader failings in the Anglican Church and in the criminal justice system. In 2015 the CPS accepted that there had been "sufficient admissible, substantial and reliable evidence" that Ball had committed the offences and that a prosecution would have been in the public interest in 1993. The question, which of course remains opaque, is whether, had that prosecution been pursued, the subsequent offences might have been prevented.

The Cambridge House, Knowl View and Rochdale Inquiry will look at CSA of children placed in residential children's homes by Rochdale Council, including the involvement of Cyril Smith in that abuse. It

will not look solely at the council's treatment of children, but will also consider, amongst other matters, the role of the police, the prosecuting authorities and the Department of Education.

From Ben Emmerson's opening statement

Smith was a governor of a number of Rochdale schools and played a role in the establishment of the Cambridge House Hostel and Knowl View School. The investigation will examine whether Smith used his position either as a governor or as a local politician to secure inappropriate access to children.

(...)

The two institutions at the heart of this investigation -- Knowl View School and Cambridge House Hostel -- were residential establishments for boys and young men. Cambridge House was opened to residents in 1962 until its closure in 1965. Knowl View opened in 1969 and finally closed, after a period of temporary closure, in 1996. Knowl View was, during the period of time covered by this investigation, under the supervision of Rochdale Borough Council and the Department of Education.

Cambridge House Hostel, however, was different. It was set up by the Rochdale Hostel for Boys Association, a voluntary organisation. Its chair was a probation officer; its secretary was Cyril Smith. It is known, however, that Rochdale Borough Council placed some children in Cambridge House.

(...)

The Inquiry has had the opportunity to consider a significant quantity of material disclosed to it by Rochdale Borough Council about Knowl View School. The bulk of this material focuses on the period from around 1989 until the closure of the school in 1994.

Three main issues have emerged. The first is that the material supplied by the council proved the exploitation of boys who attended Knowl View School and possibly children who resided in children's homes in Rochdale in public toilets and other places outside the school. Some of these children may have been very young indeed. It is important to understand whether the exploitation of these children was tolerated over time and, if it was, to understand how children most in need of protection were allowed to be the subject of this sort of abuse.

(...)

The second issue is that a known paedophile gained entry to Knowl View School in 1990. While this incident was to precipitate changes in the school, the materials that we have seen suggest that it was not a one-off and that this individual may have been targeting the school and its children for many years. Again, whether the risks this individual posed to children were simply accepted as part and parcel of school life and what that tells us about the treatment of children at Knowl View School is a matter which this investigation will need to consider.

The third issue is the extent to which the school failed to protect children from other children who posed a risk of sexual harm to them. Again, the documentation provided suggests that there may have been failures to assess the risks some children posed to others and that this was compounded by failures to adequately supervise children at night.

 

[shygirl]

Just heard that the woman doing the enquiry has found no evidence of high profile/establishment CSE. Oh, what a fucking surprise. Not.

 

[laptop]

Just heard that the woman doing the enquiry has found no evidence of high profile/establishment CSE. Oh, what a fucking surprise. Not.

Heard from whom?

The inquiry cannot have formally found anything when it hasn't even started hearing evidence...

 

[shygirl]

Heard from whom?

The inquiry cannot have formally found anything when it hasn't even started hearing evidence...

bbc news. its the enquiry, looking at the Waterhous enquiry. sorry if I've got the wrong one

 

[Lurdan]

Macur review: 'No reason' to undermine abuse inquiry findings - BBC News

North Wales child abuse scandal: The road to Macur - BBC News

Report of the Macur Review (redacted) - gov.uk

 

[shygirl]

Thanks Lurdan

 

[laptop]

Not very high-level, but: Met Police detective charged with child sex offences - BBC News

A Met Police detective working in a child abuse investigation unit has been charged with child sex offences.

 

[elbows]

Macur review: 'No reason' to undermine abuse inquiry findings - BBC News

North Wales child abuse scandal: The road to Macur - BBC News

Report of the Macur Review (redacted) - gov.uk

Thanks for the links. Didn't expect much exposure of anything from that one really. Just as well, as its stuffy, narrow, redacted and thoroughly establishment style respectable. Very different to how the main inquiry will need to be careful to be, at least in some areas, in order to stand even a vague chance of reducing public cynicism and mistrust.

I don't think there is much point in me spending too much time picking on that reviews conclusions too much at this stage, its very narrow remit means it was never going to cut the mustard. The main 'disappointment' for how it turned out compared to what we might of expected if we believed everything we read in the newspapers post-Savile, relates to the Welsh Office, e.g. the notion that William Hague put a lid on some things for party reasons. e.g. Peter Morrison. But it turns out that all this review manages to do in this regard is successfully blunt some of the important stuff that is claimed in the likes of the following Daily Mail article. An article which I'm confident caught this threads attention at the time, as I remember going on about it.

Former Minister says Thatcher aide was paedophile who preyed on boys' home - and Hague should have known

The review talked to Rod Richards and he said plenty of things that undermine that Mail article. There are other opportunities where we might discover more of the actual truth about Peter Morrison, but this didn't turn out to be one of them.

Sadly I haven't got time to read the whole review, and from the fair chunk of it I did manage it doesn't seem worth it. But certainly aside from the area I've just drawn attention to, there is stuff there about the whole McAlpine mess and the antics of a journalist with photographs trying to get a victim to put a name to an powerful abusers face. The nature of the redactions in the report make reading it really weird though, you pretty much have to remember the whole story including historical & internet rumours and the full alleged cast list in order to make sense of some sections, and if you already know that stuff this review doesn't have much of value to add.

 

[Lurdan]

ooops wrong thread..

 

[Lurdan]

Operation Midland "has now closed". Harvey Proctor has been informed that he faces no further action. Met statement here.

Whilst investigations could not be completed into individuals who are no longer alive, sufficient evidence has not been found that would have led the MPS to refer the matter to the CPS if they were alive.

In the course of the investigation, officers have not found evidence to prove that they were knowingly misled by a complainant. The MPS does not investigate complainants simply on the basis that their allegations have not been corroborated.

The Met have attempted to pick a 'good day' to announce this but the hostile criticism of the Operation is unlikely to be deflected.

 

[kingfisher]

guess this lapses to the realm of "conspiracy theory" now - (which im sure the good soldiers amongst the electronic corps will back - with a lol) - bloody disgusting JAnner is a fact - Smith is a fact - , why the greens dont call them all nonces (and 9/11 a lie while there at it ) is unknown to me - bloody hell, how can we talk about the little stuff when the pary machines have been run by these MONSTERS - #spyspys not #spycops did this . also #copcops but we know the #copcops jump when the #spyspys say jump , OH for a free press, nah , wil just be told on the david icke forums and photocopied pamphlets of lunatics. PROTEST AT MI5 on the 14th april from midnight!!!!

 

[kingfisher]

janner and smith confirmed - but has there actually been a tory confirmed (britain and heath potentially innocent werent htey_) - ah its a fucked up situation, must discuss sensibily but who is at the centre of all of this? who told polciei n leicester and winchester and lambeth and elsewhere to desist - ITS BLOODY THE SECURITY SERVICES isnt it ? but we dont do demos there do we, not for ten years -= ha ha ha -and you lot - you lot bending the narrative for them? your part of it - hang.,your,heads

 

[Diamond]

guess this lapses to the realm of "conspiracy theory" now - (which im sure the good soldiers amongst the electronic corps will back - with a lol) - bloody disgusting JAnner is a fact - Smith is a fact - , why the greens dont call them all nonces (and 9/11 a lie while there at it ) is unknown to me - bloody hell, how can we talk about the little stuff when the pary machines have been run by these MONSTERS - #spyspys not #spycops did this . also #copcops but we know the #copcops jump when the #spyspys say jump , OH for a free press, nah , wil just be told on the david icke forums and photocopied pamphlets of lunatics. PROTEST AT MI5 on the 14th april from midnight!!!!

9/11 is a lie?

 

[existentialist]

janner and smith confirmed - but has there actually been a tory confirmed (britain and heath potentially innocent werent htey_) - ah its a fucked up situation, must discuss sensibily but who is at the centre of all of this? who told polciei n leicester and winchester and lambeth and elsewhere to desist - ITS BLOODY THE SECURITY SERVICES isnt it ? but we dont do demos there do we, not for ten years -= ha ha ha -and you lot - you lot bending the narrative for them? your part of it - hang.,your,heads

You know, it might merely be because, having recently gone through the process of taking a (non-celebrity) paedophile to court, I'm a bit touchy about these things, but it REALLY FUCKS ME OFF when conspiratastic nutjobs start hijacking every single fucking social issue in support of their cause.

It's not spies. It's not gubmint. It's not the fucking Freemasonic Illuminati Lizard Alpha Centauri Combo conspiracy.

It's adults sexually abusing kids. Pure and simple.

Try not to forget that, eh?

 

[kingfisher]

You know, it might merely be because, having recently gone through the process of taking a (non-celebrity) paedophile to court, I'm a bit touchy about these things, but it REALLY FUCKS ME OFF when conspiratastic nutjobs start hijacking every single fucking social issue in support of their cause.

It's not spies. It's not gubmint. It's not the fucking Freemasonic Illuminati Lizard Alpha Centauri Combo conspiracy.

It's adults sexually abusing kids. Pure and simple.

Try not to forget that, eh?

i hope you got justice - and i dont have a cause - specifically rather than the angle of spy analysis - but in this case VIP paedophiles IT IS spies and fovernemnt (not sure about aliens n all that )

 

[kingfisher]

im not some ho hum mother fucker getting no vicarious thrills of it - my mate died in winchester prison for getting a ring all the way up to [ed: no names, please] - in the cover up - sorry , in this VIP paedophile thread "conspiracy nutjob" is the only angle you can go on it - a conspiracy , a systemic system of recruiting kids for blackmail/diploacy - that havent been believed - for you to reduce it as Freemasonic Illuminati Lizard Alpha Centauri Combo conspiracy. - thats fucking mocking the kids that have been abused and the survivors. my mate - that was done by leon britain for example. who stood with fitted up IRA men. YES it is to do with SPIES and is to do with GOVERNMENT and it is to do with SOCIAL WORKERS and FREEMASONS - (ALPHA CENTUERI- what you on about - )

 

[existentialist]

<-->

Poke it, sunshine. As far as I'm concerned, that's a line crossed. And I'm not talking about the Freemasons bollocks, either.

People want Urban to cut you some slack. I can appreciate that - you're clearly not having quite the same relationship with reality that most of us enjoy. However, that doesn't give you carte blanche to hijack every issue, as it suits you, in pursuit of your own delusions, without being at least slightly held to account for doing so. Or just having the implications of what you're saying pointed out to you.

And that's what I'm doing: I'm pointing out the implications of what you're saying. At the very least, take your conspiranoid ramblings elsewhere than a halfway-decent and informative thread about a topic that is serious and important to enough of us for it not to be appropriate to be hijacked for that kind of nonsense.

Wind it in.

 

[kingfisher]

no you are right, the mi5 dont have anything to do with the closing of operation midland and the covering up, leaning on the judiciary, media police etc to "fix it" (geddit) for these (yes i will say it ) "illuminati paedophiles" - what is "urban" - "same relationship with reality" - no i dont have a deal at present to protest./opine within the narrative -for reward - no - but THIS THREAD - yeah , umm MI5 are at the centre of it, obviously, and the failure to discuss that implys the forum as run by "them" - DELUSIONS - what delusions - what nonsense - MI5 are at the centre of the VIP paeo ring issue - http://www.nervemeter.co.uk/images/N8.pdf you read this -
so im not sure hwat you are saying , are you of the opinion that ) there is no organized UK VIP paedo ring (all the gotvt nonces were doing it independently) OR there are VIP Paedos but MI5 "missed them" in vetting etc OR .. ? - you keep saying conspiraoid - IT IS A FUCKING CONSPIRACY. but you know - you know this - but gotta get paid isnt it - gott a build the compromised-alternative narrative!!!

the secret services are at the centre of this - kincora (is that a conspiracy)_

are you not allowed to discuss once i comment on a thread? because personally i have barracked activists ( you know the squatty type people and that, your occupy type peopole n that_ for refusing to tackle this LEAVING this issue to the bedraggled, leaving them on the fringes - because its TOCLOSE TOHOME - yes
im campaignign on this - im taking direct action ,
fuck you , doesnt it make you feel bad ? lying , sayin it s "conspiraoied" - nice word by the way , nice bit of degradation and dissembling-
enjoy your cognitive dissonance - is your paedophile case you talk to real (i dont know your just a person on the internet like me ) or is that just gaslighting to shame me to shutting up -
in short - anyone thats involved in the secret services that tells themselves the lie that they are "woerking for the people" "practising entryism" - has this on the colective memory of their organization, but shamefully enough , there is no one to whistle blow too - no one to tell - you need me - sorry for ruining you thread by the way. sorry for any offence - i may just go set myself on fire in the mi5 lobby, (probs just snuiff 3 bags of smack there though OD - be less painful if failed) -

 

[editor]

no you are right, the mi5 dont have anything to do with the closing of operation midland and the covering up, leaning on the judiciary, media police etc to "fix it" (geddit) for these (yes i will say it ) "illuminati paedophiles" - what is "urban" - "same relationship with reality" - no i dont have a deal at present to protest./opine within the narrative -for reward - no - but THIS THREAD - yeah , umm MI5 are at the centre of it, obviously, and the failure to discuss that implys the forum as run by "them" - DELUSIONS - what delusions - what nonsense - MI5 are at the centre of the VIP paeo ring issue - http://www.nervemeter.co.uk/images/N8.pdf you read this -
so im not sure hwat you are saying , are you of the opinion that ) there is no organized UK VIP paedo ring (all the gotvt nonces were doing it independently) OR there are VIP Paedos but MI5 "missed them" in vetting etc OR .. ? - you keep saying conspiraoid - IT IS A FUCKING CONSPIRACY. but you know - you know this - but gotta get paid isnt it - gott a build the compromised-alternative narrative!!!

Please do NOT post up any allegations naming specific persons who have not been charged. This is not because I'm doubting what you're saying, but by doing do you can put the site at serious risk and I haven't got the £££££s to take on defamation proceedings.

 

[free spirit]

kingfisher There are ways of saying this stuff that puts it across in a way that doesn't make people roll their eyes and dismiss you as a conspiracy loon. That's what this thread's been about from the start, researching, documenting, recording and attempting to separate the wheat from the chafe.

There have been discussions about MI5 involvement throughout this thread, and IMO at least some elements of MI5 are implicated at the heart of much of this, but flinging around allegations that anyone who crosses you / doesn't fully support your posts must be on the payrole is a seriously counter productive way of going about things, as is disbelieving a long term poster who's documented their case on these forums over several years.

Please take a step back, read over your recent posts and have a think about your approach, as it's disrupting this and other threads and pissing off people who're on the same side of the situation.

 

[free spirit]

Please do NOT post up any allegations naming specific persons who have not been charged. This is not because I'm doubting what you're saying, but by doing do you can put the site at serious risk and I haven't got the £££££s to take on defamation proceedings.

also what the editor says. This thread has been allowed to stay open and running for 211 pages since 2012 because posters have been careful to keep the right side of these lines. Several others have ended up being closed because of posts like yours.

 

[kingfisher]

my approach is that - the normative narrative - of this site - like all forum is geared toward the longstanding posters - who work for the secret services , they were nt allway in the majority but they are now - the cussingsorry down of conspiracy themes, and quite frankly for people who just lurk - who use this as a resource., the fucked up think about these IP (investigatory powers;Illuminati paedos) is that people all know who they are , the journos etc etc - the lawyers, yes they are all uin on it - compare to the "super injunctions" - they all got named on twitter - downfal - for frivolous things, no definitive list exitsts, sorry guys, i think i am fulfilling a function - there are spies here, narrative controllers who - are covering up - but no ones doing dmeos except me - its monstrous.
but the editor in his wisdom has allowed me to remain so, thats cool - you people should really be forced to lie , occasionaly rather than rely on aloof snarky innuendo. .
power to the peoplke
kill the monsters

 

[free spirit]

Thing is, you do the security services jobs for them if you cast unfounded aspersions on long standing posters and activists, it just creates an atmosphere of mistrust, backstabbing and cliques that paralyses activist groups. Especially when you apparently don't know any of the people involved.

 

[kingfisher]

no i think there should be definitely more mistrust - and if its about "knowing them" - iv been lurking herfe long enough, i dont have to have my ideologys battered into conforming with the "THERE ARE NO SPOOKS THAT IS MISGUIDED WE MUYST HAVE UNITY OR CONFLICT WITHIN PARAMETERS" - i do know them , i know lots of people , all of activism, all of forums are run by spooks - thats why they cant talk about spooks - BUT THIS IS OFF TOPIC - have your discussion about VIP PAEDOS sans spooks - BIG UP TO THE FORUM MODERATORS who havent kicked me yet - , sad thing about the IP BILL - make the disgusted disavaowed disparaged former agents, make it harder for them to link up, to whistleblow in a faction , ,, , everyone spying on everyone, but this is about the VIP PAEDO ring , THAT DID EXIST -
KINGCORA WAS THE MODEL
longstanding ! HAH! if they are longstanding they wouldv figured iut out (or maybe how to know or not know) - this is for the lURKERS - the RESEARCHERS , the muggles - the future historians.

 

[kingfisher]

sorry im not trying to derail this at all

 

[free spirit]

ok, well just a word to the wise then... it's GCHQ who'll be doing the social media / online stuff not really MI5.

 

[kingfisher]

Meet Prism's little brother: Socmint (Wired UK) and the police, various forces, all have their own agenda? - does GCHQ have linguists - or de they decrypt then send over to mi5 - to gchq do offline sutff- the transfere of anonynmous online to offline - they all do everything - what the #spycops thing is quit a lot about is ACPO basically trying to set up a whole new bloody international spy game - WELL THIS IS STUFF WE WIL NEVER NOW free spirit -

 

[kingfisher]

thats something ill never know - how the spooks justified letting these nonce politcians get away with it - apparantly the kgb gru know - maybe we will see it on RT- yeah bit more espionage please, the terrorism myth has gone quite stale- sorry - sorry derailign

 

[Lurdan]

Self-effacing "victims champion" John Mann MP swiftly issued a press statement after the Met announced that Operation Midland had ended.

I am not at all surprised that Operation Midland has been closed down.

I have never discussed matters with the witness ‘Nick’ who was making the allegations and I did not send evidence to the Midland investigation.

I had one meeting, last autumn, at Midland’s request where I provided them with a new source of related allegations that impacts on several enquiries, including North Wales.

(...)

Mr Harvey Proctor, as well as misquoting me today, has claimed that there was no Westminster or VIP ring. As he has had no involvement with it, by definition, how can he possibly know this? His uninformed speculation is unhelpful.

Misquoted eh ? And "did not send evidence to the Midland investigation". I don't seem to be able to find the press statement Mann issued when he was "misquoted" by the Daily Mail last March.

VIP abuse police raid home of shamed Tory: Veteran Harvey Proctor will be first of many to be investigated, says campaigning Labour MP - Daily Mail 5th March 2015
(...)

Harvey Proctor, 68, had been named on a list of politicians passed to police by campaigning Labour MP John Mann.

(...)

It is understood that investigators now have up to nine current and former senior politicians on Mr Mann’s list in their sights as the sensitive inquiry gathers pace.

Speaking last night, Mr Mann said he was pleased at the progress of the investigation and insisted that ‘no stone must be left unturned’.

‘It is encouraging to see that the Met are continuing to fully investigate allegations of child abuse and prominent people,’ he added.

(...)

Campaigning MP John Mann passed his dossier naming suspected Westminster paedophiles to police in December last year.

The explosive list identifies 22 potential suspects across the political spectrum who are allegedly linked to historic child abuse between 1970 and the late-1990s.

Of these, nine are still alive, and are said to include four serving MPs, three former MPs, a member of the House of Lords and one high-ranking town hall figure. The document also includes the names of 13 ex-ministers, including at least two who allegedly went to ‘abuse parties’.

The report names 14 Tory politicians, five Labour and three others.

As a young councillor in South London, Mr Mann uncovered evidence a Tory Cabinet minister was allegedly involved. He alerted police but was told three months later that the inquiry was being shelved on the orders of ‘those at the top’.