Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[belboid]

Warning civilians to evacuate before attacking is something that doesn't even happen in most wars, so I'm not sure it's suggestive of the holocaust. But Jewish people are doing it so go off I guess.

It's a basic rule of war, in fact. Recognised by both the USA and Israel.

 

[MickiQ]

He is a fool. (Potentially career-ending statement from me there, given that he's my boss, and politicians tend not to cope well with challenge).

If your plan requires a million people to move in 24 hours, and you know that they can't, then you need a new plan.

Even if the 24 hours proves to be a somewhat elastic concept, the negative effects of a million people trying to move in 24 hours are deeply problematic from a humanitarian and moral - and I would argue, political in the medium/long term - standpoint.

I think the Israelis have really fucked up with this - and Shapps could have skirted the issue by simply saying (and resaying) that we are in constant contact with the Israelis to both support them, and to offer our candid advice as a friend. That might not have pleased the interviewer (I listened to it), but it would have avoided answering the direct question and allowed anyone listening to hear what they want to hear - we are supporting the Israelis, but we are not saying that this is a good idea.

You would probably be better off with one of the breeze blocks for a boss tbh.

 

[Pickman's model]

I fail to see the relevance of that obvious point to the matter at hand.

mass killings do not require much technology or death camps. a point i thought should have been obvious after the genocide in rwanda. walking hundreds of thousands of people even a few miles south through ruins, without adequate food or water, without medicine, in an extremely stressful environment - that, i think, can be relied upon to do for a large number of the young, the disabled, the elderly, the infirm.

 

[Duncan2]

I am sure the Palestinians are very grateful

 

[Pickman's model]

He is a fool. (Potentially career-ending statement from me there, given that he's my boss, and politicians tend not to cope well with challenge).

If your plan requires a million people to move in 24 hours, and you know that they can't, then you need a new plan.

Even if the 24 hours proves to be a somewhat elastic concept, the negative effects of a million people trying to move in 24 hours are deeply problematic from a humanitarian and moral - and I would argue, political in the medium/long term - standpoint.

I think the Israelis have really fucked up with this - and Shapps could have skirted the issue by simply saying (and resaying) that we are in constant contact with the Israelis to both support them, and to offer our candid advice as a friend. That might not have pleased the interviewer (I listened to it), but it would have avoided answering the direct question and allowed anyone listening to hear what they want to hear - we are supporting the Israelis, but we are not saying that this is a good idea.

sunak wants to be party to something bloody

 

[AnnaKarpik]

He is a fool. (Potentially career-ending statement from me there, given that he's my boss, and politicians tend not to cope well with challenge).

If your plan requires a million people to move in 24 hours, and you know that they can't, then you need a new plan.

Even if the 24 hours proves to be a somewhat elastic concept, the negative effects of a million people trying to move in 24 hours are deeply problematic from a humanitarian and moral - and I would argue, political in the medium/long term - standpoint.

I think the Israelis have really fucked up with this - and Shapps could have skirted the issue by simply saying (and resaying) that we are in constant contact with the Israelis to both support them, and to offer our candid advice as a friend. That might not have pleased the interviewer (I listened to it), but it would have avoided answering the direct question and allowed anyone listening to hear what they want to hear - we are supporting the Israelis, but we are not saying that this is a good idea.

Exactly - I'd fondly imagined that politicians had people who could teach them to talk like politicians. You'd do a better job of it than Schappsy.

 

[belboid]

Some ex-Israel army dude was on C4 news the other day, describing what they usually do to 'warn' citizens of an upcoming attack on their building:

"We send a small missile in first, that's unlikely to kill anyone. They know to leave then."

 

[AnnaKarpik]

I'm not sure it's a good idea for the US and UK to be sending military support for Israel while it slaughters thousands? of civilians.

But Hamas!

 

[kebabking]

I'm not sure it's a good idea for the US and UK to be sending military support for Israel while it slaughters thousands? of civilians.

I'd kind of argue the opposite - the US is supplying both defensive stuff like the missiles from the US's stocks of the Iron Dome system, and the JDAM guidence kits that turn unguided bombs into guided bombs. If you drop bombs more accurately, you drop fewer bombs - that's not a bad thing.

The UK is supplying Int support, both from the P-8 that will be concentrating on the maritime picture, and from the GCHQ stuff in Cyprus. Better int, better targeting, less 'mass' required.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd kind of argue the opposite - the US is supplying both defensive stuff like the missiles from the US's stocks of the Iron Dome system, and the JDAM guidence kits that turn unguided bombs into guided bombs. If you drop bombs more accurately, you drop fewer bombs - that's not a bad thing.

The UK is supplying Int support, both from the P-8 that will be concentrating on the maritime picture, and from the GCHQ stuff in Cyprus. Better int, better targeting, less 'mass' required.

there are doubtless reasons why the zionists do not develop these capabilities themselves

 

[Artaxerxes]

 

[Pickman's model]

View attachment 395233

grant shapps is a fucking twat

 

[TopCat]

That moral and ethical high ground mentioned previously looks a tad bare today.

 

[Duncan2]

Guess the only Israeli priority will be to avoid further IDF deaths.Dont know whether it has any basis in fact but I recall seeing I think on YouTube something about Gaza incursions which referred to underground tunnels.Apparently a great deal of them.Probably moot now given the devastation wrought from the air.

 

[not-bono-ever]

politicians are cunts.

 

[planetgeli]

Guess the only Israeli priority will be to avoid further IDF deaths..

Everything I've seen suggests Israel has accepted their invasion will incur a high death toll and they are prepared to accept the price. For me, that's what makes this more scary and obvious what is about to happen.

 

[Pickman's model]

Guess the only Israeli priority will be to avoid further IDF deaths.Dont know whether it has any basis in fact but I recall seeing I think on YouTube something about Gaza incursions which referred to underground tunnels.Apparently a great deal of them.Probably moot now given the devastation wrought from the air.

some info here a zionist document about tunnel warfare and palestinian groups https://www.ict.org.il/images/The “Tunnel Strategy”.pdf rand report on previous zionist wars in gaza https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_briefs/RB9900/RB9975/RAND_RB9975.pdf us army manual on subterranean ops from the federation of american scientists https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/atp3-21-51.pdf
there's a lot of stuff on subterranean warfare out there, much of it very interesting.

 

[kebabking]

there are doubtless reasons why the zionists do not develop these capabilities themselves

They have them - they invented Iron Dome, and the US bought it. What they don't have is an endless supply on the interceptors - the US is simply diving into its stocks.

The Israelis also overwhelming use guided munitions, but the guided bit is expensive, so if they get into a large scale war they'll run out of them quickly. The US resupply means they can use more guided munitions, and fewer unguided munitions.

It's also a good way of persuading the Iranians to stay at home. Which is probably a good thing...

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Not sure if true. Can’t corroborate with other news sources.

 

[two sheds]

They have them - they invented Iron Dome, and the US bought it. What they don't have is an endless supply on the interceptors - the US is simply diving into its stocks.

The Israelis also overwhelming use guided munitions, but the guided bit is expensive, so if they get into a large scale war they'll run out of them quickly. The US resupply means they can use more guided munitions, and fewer unguided munitions.

It's also a good way of persuading the Iranians to stay at home. Which is probably a good thing...

Fair point, I just wonder whether it would be better to promise help as long as they stop slaughtering civilians. Not that it would change them.

 

[Cid]

Guess the only Israeli priority will be to avoid further IDF deaths.Dont know whether it has any basis in fact but I recall seeing I think on YouTube something about Gaza incursions which referred to underground tunnels.Apparently a great deal of them.Probably moot now given the devastation wrought from the air.

I think the purpose is simply to allow full freedom of action for their military in the 'evacuated' area.

 

[kebabking]

Fair point, I just wonder whether it would be better to promise help as long as they stop slaughtering civilians. Not that it would change them.

Counter productive imv - if you want them to lash out in wild panic and revenge, tell them that no one else will support them or come to their aid.

The more confident they are that they will be able to dismantle Hamas' ability to attack them, and that Hezbollah and Iran are going to sit it out, the less panicked they'll be, and the more likely they are to take a deep breath before doing something stupid.

 

[Pickman's model]

They have them - they invented Iron Dome, and the US bought it. What they don't have is an endless supply on the interceptors - the US is simply diving into its stocks.

The Israelis also overwhelming use guided munitions, but the guided bit is expensive, so if they get into a large scale war they'll run out of them quickly. The US resupply means they can use more guided munitions, and fewer unguided munitions.

It's also a good way of persuading the Iranians to stay at home. Which is probably a good thing...

I suspect the zionists will be happy to use many unguided bombs no matter how many jdams they have

 

[Larry O'Hara]

View attachment 395233

So condoning a war crime. Nice

 

[TopCat]

So condoning a war crime. Nice

More than condoning, supporting.

 

[frogwoman]

That's a fair point. The US has shown signs of pulling back its support in recent years and it hasn't exactly made Israel's government think twice.

 

[Knotted]

Some ex-Israel army dude was on C4 news the other day, describing what they usually do to 'warn' citizens of an upcoming attack on their building:

"We send a small missile in first, that's unlikely to kill anyone. They know to leave then."

This is their standard practice. It does mean that they're explicitly precision targeting civilian buildings. The residents have a minute or something to get out.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Counter productive imv - if you want them to lash out in wild panic and revenge, tell them that no one else will support them or come to their aid.

The more confident they are that they will be able to dismantle Hamas' ability to attack them, and that Hezbollah and Iran are going to sit it out, the less panicked they'll be, and the more likely they are to take a deep breath before doing something stupid.

You seem to think something stupid is something genocidal: but in order to restore their credibility at home something genocidal is exactly what the politicians and IDF intend to do and have already started. With full support from Western govts it seems

 

[Pickman's model]

This is their standard practice. It does mean that they're explicitly precision targeting civilian buildings. The residents have a minute or something to get out.

a whole minute how kind

 

[Larry O'Hara]

More than condoning, supporting.

agree