Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Idris2002]

See

Counter productive imv - if you want them to lash out in wild panic and revenge, tell them that no one else will support them or come to their aid.

The more confident they are that they will be able to dismantle Hamas' ability to attack them, and that Hezbollah and Iran are going to sit it out, the less panicked they'll be, and the more likely they are to take a deep breath before doing something stupid.

Has Israel actually said what the mission is going to be, though? Even Bush said "our quarrel is not with the Iraqi people." Israeli government people are talking about "human animals", in contrast, and I haven't seen anything that suggests they are confining that one to Hamas alone. I think the mission will, actually, be about "lashing out in wild panic and revenge".

 

[Pickman's model]

See

Has Israel actually said what the mission is going to be, though? Even Bush said "our quarrel is not with the Iraqi people." Israeli government people are talking about "human animals", in contrast, and I haven't seen anything that suggests they are confining that one to Hamas alone. I think the mission will, actually, be about "lashing out in wild panic and revenge".

that's because it will be

 

[TopCat]

Ursula has arrived

 

[Knotted]

Looking at the end game for Israel, it's not going to be wreak havoc for a month and then go back to normal because that doesn't solve their security concerns in the medium term. In addition if they swerve away from the genocidal policy of the present (which seems to be what Israel's allies are hoping to persuade them to do) it will make them look weak and they really, really don't want to look weak.

 

[Pickman's model]

Looking at the end game for Israel, it's not going to be wreak havoc for a month and then go back to normal because that doesn't solve their security concerns in the medium term. In addition if they swerve away from the genocidal policy of the present (which seems to be what Israel's allies are hoping to persuade them to do) it will make them look weak and they really, really don't want to look weak.

the end game won't be reached in a month if the point of the operation is to reverberate down the generations

 

[planetgeli]

They have them - they invented Iron Dome, and the US bought it. What they don't have is an endless supply on the interceptors - the US is simply diving into its stocks.

The Israelis also overwhelming use guided munitions, but the guided bit is expensive, so if they get into a large scale war they'll run out of them quickly. The US resupply means they can use more guided munitions, and fewer unguided munitions.

It's also a good way of persuading the Iranians to stay at home. Which is probably a good thing...

I'm not sure Iran is bothered whether the missiles are guided or unguided.

Amir-Abdollahian said: “America cannot send weapons and bombs to kill women, children and civilians in Gaza and at the same time call on all sides for self-restraint.”

AA is Iran's foreign minister. Let's hope that's just bluster eh?

 

[Orang Utan]

Ursula has arrived

View attachment 395239

Who are they?

 

[Pickman's model]

Who are they?

ursula the top eu person and two other people

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Actually, thinking about it, if they ethnically cleanse 1.1 million Palestinians, the idea might be to then move further settlers in, then in the next stage, wipe out those Palestinians still alive in their shrunken open air prison camp. Not so much a two state solution as a two stage one…This because (barring a just peace which no western govt supports) the only way even existing settlements can be safe from attack permanently is genocide. For surely that is a lesson from recent events?

 

[editor]

This is their standard practice. It does mean that they're explicitly precision targeting civilian buildings. The residents have a minute or something to get out.

I can't even begin to imagine the fear, panic and terror that must follow witnessing the first attack - and then trying to find your loved ones, kids, pets and important belongings etc and somehow get out of the area in seconds/minutes.

 

[The39thStep]

ursula the top eu person and two other people

The woman on the right of the photo is Roberta Masola (Malta's Nationalist Party) the EU President

 

[Kid_Eternity]

This is also  insane from the perspective of Israeli security and the safety of Jewish people around the world. The Israeli government aren't acting rationally at all. Throwing a tantrum at the UN for saying demanding 1.1 million people move within 24 hrs is impossible.

It’s a military tactic; when they do the follow up ground operation they can claim anyone left is Hamas after saying they warned people to leave.

 

[Orang Utan]

The woman on the right of the photo is Roberta Masola (Malta's Nationalist Party) the EU President

Ah - my god I should pay more attention to European politics. I’m struggling to remember any names or faces of former EU Presidents - Donald Tusk and Jacques Delor are the only ones I can think of.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Her pony got et by wolves.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Looking at the end game for Israel, it's not going to be wreak havoc for a month and then go back to normal because that doesn't solve their security concerns in the medium term. In addition if they swerve away from the genocidal policy of the present (which seems to be what Israel's allies are hoping to persuade them to do) it will make them look weak and they really, really don't want to look weak.

I get the impression they’re going to take over 30-40% of Gaza permanently. Basically redraw the map.

 

[teqniq]

This is grim. The White House is pretty much green lighting genocide here whilst being completely dismissive of concerns being raised by some representatives:

'Deep moral failing': White House condemns progressives for caring about Palestinians

US politicians 'lost sight of their humanity' and will have to grapple with it for rest of their lives, says congressional aide

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[The39thStep]

Ah - my god I should pay more attention to European politics. I’m struggling to remember any names or faces of former EU Presidents - Donald Tusk and Jacques Delor are the only ones I can think of.

Up to you really however the next year is going to be interesting as a number of EU states will possibly go further to the right and there will also be further discussions about EU expansion. Tusk by the way is standing in the Polish elections ( this weekend I think) which looks like it could be close

 

[not-bono-ever]

It’s a trap surely ? If the aim was to ramp up the pressure and destabilise the ME, then the calculation suggested that Israel will go to town and push the destabilisation further down the line. Which is what’s happening it seems. Someone has to blink first

 

[Cid]

Press conference with Lloyd Austin and Gallant ongoing. No room for hope as far as I can tell.

'US security assistance will flow in to Israel at the speed of war'

 

[Cid]

Being summarised on graun feed:

Israel-Hamas war live: Hamas tells people to stay put after Israeli military tells Gaza City residents to evacuate

UN spokesperson says evacuation order affects 1.1 million people and will spark ‘devastating humanitarian consequences’, amid expectations of Israeli ground assault

www.theguardian.com

 

[Cid]

Jesus, Austin gets a fucking soft as fuck ball from - iirc - ABC asking mild 'rules of war' etc Q: 'we'll leave it to Israel ... Israel is professional ... we'll leave it to them ... international fought ISIS [that's on tactics of using civilian buildings] ... created corridors ... well led, professional force'

Just full, unequivocal support.

 

[Aladdin]

Warning civilians to evacuate before attacking is something that doesn't even happen in most wars, so I'm not sure it's suggestive of the holocaust. But Jewish people are doing it so go off I guess.

Warning them as a tokenism because you know you've shut all borders.. cut all power and water and food. ??
That's a lie of a warning ...its ao they can say later on "we did warn them its not our fault they didn't leave"

It's not ok. It's not how any supposedly "civilised" society should treat innocent people caught in the crossfire of a pathetic lie of a war.

 

[The39thStep]

So the hostages? Bargaining chip or bluff?

 

[Cid]

'In countering ISIS I saw pure evil, with Hamas that evil is taken to the next level' (on a q about how to manage civilian evacuations)

(obviously just empty, vague statements on actually evacuating)

And Gallant refusing to clarify on 24 hours.

 

[Idris2002]

So the hostages? Bargaining chip or bluff?

I suspect only their families care about them now.

 

[frogwoman]

Had a conversation with my mum last night in which she was saying she always thought Israel was doomed - but didn't expect it to start unravelling quite so soon.

 

[Pickman's model]

So the hostages? Bargaining chip or bluff?

stuffed

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Well…

 

[Pickman's model]

Had a conversation with my mum last night in which she was saying she always thought Israel was doomed - but didn't expect it to start unravelling quite so soon.

thought it would last longer than the kingdom of jerusalem

 

[kebabking]

I suspect only their families care about them now.

I suspect it's more nuanced than that - I get the feeling that Israeli society (or at least the body politic) has taken the view that the price for whichever hostages are still alive will be higher than the security of Israel can stand, and I mean more than the 5,000 or so Hamas'/Gazan prisoners, and possibly more than all the Palestinian prisoners - and that therefore they are already dead (some actually, some figuratively).