Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[A380]

I suspect only their families care about them now.

I care about them. Just like I care about the people in Gaza trapped and waiting for the next attack.

Anyone who doesn’t is a bit of a cunt IMO.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well…

not sure 'well' is really enough to introduce four tweets suggesting that a regional war possibly involving the use of nuclear weapons is on the cards

 

[PTK]

not sure 'well' is really enough to introduce four tweets suggesting that a regional war possibly involving the use of nuclear weapons is on the cards

It reads like a load of bollocks to me.

 

[planetgeli]

I care about them. Just like I care about the people in Gaza trapped and waiting for the next attack.

Anyone who doesn’t is a bit of a cunt IMO.

I suspect Idris2002 was implying the Israeli government don't care about them. They've already decided, as I think kebabking said, that the cost of specifically freeing any hostages has been deemed too much when measured against the security of Israel.

You I and I suspect Idris2002 obviously do care about innocent civilians caught in this. That includes the hostages. It doesn't make anyone support Hamas. A slaughter is about to take place (is already taking place) and the fact people are rightly getting worked up about Palestinian numbers more than the hostages is just that, a numbers game...possibly involving genocide.It doesn't mean nobody cares about the Israelis. The only people showcasing their don't give a fuck attitude to innocent people right now are the Israeli government. Because two wrongs obviously do make a right when you have the unambiguous support of major western leaders behind you.

 

[Gramsci]

For years Israeli governments have been gradually grinding Palestinians done with knowledge that the international community wouldn't genuinely try and stop them. I was reading an Israeli human rights organisation analysis of the policies of this present government in Israel. Whilst not directly annexing west bank the sum of its policies is to build more settlements and push Palestinian farmers off their land. The settler violence does not exist in a vacuum. It's condoned by this present government in Israel. It's not as dramatic as what might happen in Gaza nor does it constitute lashing out in revenge or genocide. It is however a form of ethnic cleansing.

Exactly at what point should international community ( US , UK etc) should threaten to stop supporting Israeli governments? If the view is that to do so now would mean that Israeli government would lash out. Well they have been using controlled violence against Palestinians in occupied territories. Gaza is effectively been under harsh military occupation for years. Whilst this was going on international community did not put any real pressure on Israeli governments.

The Israeli peace activist I posted about earlier said best way to support Israelis is for is to say no to this government. Which means not cutting off water and electricity and sending in troop's.

Another thing if the view is that Hamas should be destroyed militarily then reminded of Rashid Khalidi ( historian). saying if they go something else will take its place. The Palestinians aren't going away.

Don't think it's helpful to look at this recent events as leading to genocide. Imo it's better to see what's been happening to Palestinians as ethnic cleansing.

 

[Pickman's model]

It reads like a load of bollocks to me.

and to me being as ap are reporting hamas released a video of training going on in gaza

 

[kabbes]

Not every war is a re-enactment of the holocaust. Are you seriously comparing Hamas to the Jews in pre-War Germany? Have you seen the gas chambers for systemically executing all the Israeli-Arabs? I don't know any school kids who would make such a facile analogy as you did there.

Did I say it was the same? No. I said it was a genocide. If you don’t think that’s what it is then why not?

 

[Pickman's model]

For years Israeli governments have been gradually grinding Palestinians done with knowledge that the international community wouldn't genuinely try and stop them. I was reading an Israeli human rights organisation analysis of the policies of this present government in Israel. Whilst not directly annexing west bank the sum of its policies is to build more settlements and push Palestinian farmers off their land. The settler violence does not exist in a vacuum. It's condoned by this present government in Israel. It's not as dramatic as what might happen in Gaza nor does it constitute lashing out in revenge or genocide. It is however a form of ethnic cleansing.

Exactly at what point should international community ( US , UK etc) should threaten to stop supporting Israeli governments? If the view is that to do so now would mean that Israeli government would lash out. Well they have been using controlled violence against Palestinians in occupied territories. Gaza is effectively been under harsh military occupation for years. Whilst this was going on international community did not put any real pressure on Israeli governments.

The Israeli peace activist I posted about earlier said best way to support Israelis is for is to say no to this government. Which means not cutting off water and electricity and sending in troop's.

Another thing if the view is that Hamas should be destroyed militarily then reminded of Rashid Khalidi ( historian). saying if they go something else will take its place. The Palestinians aren't going away.

Don't think it's helpful to look at this recent events as leading to genocide. Imo it's better to see what's been happening to Palestinians as ethnic cleansing.

i don't think you can say they're simply being shunted off the land - which seems to be the bare minimum on offer - when in the course of bumping the palestinians out of gaza city thousands of people are likely to die without being bombed or shot, starvation and thirst if nothing more will do for them. plus the bumping is also going to involve the death of many thousands of palestinians. i don't suppose the zionists would mind a bit of genocide anyway

 

[TopCat]

So this weekend we have a defend Gaza demo on Saturday (assemble Portland Place) that the numbers expected are rising rapidly.

Sunday it’s a defend Israel static demo in Parliament square. I’m glad they ain’t on the same day.

 

[platinumsage]

Did I say it was the same? No. I said it was a genocide. If you don’t think that’s what it is then why not?

Yes you said that Israel is "reenacting with Palestinians the genocide that was perpetrated on Jews".

You didn't simply say it was genocide, but that it was a reenactment of a specific genocide i.e. the holocaust. If that's not what you meant why use that phrasing?

 

[PTK]

Warning civilians to evacuate before attacking is something that doesn't even happen in most wars, so I'm not sure it's suggestive of the holocaust. But Jewish people are doing it so go off I guess.

So you wouldn't mind if someone destroyed your home town, as long as you were given a warning to evacuate in 24 hours? To where would you move the patients in your local hospital?

 

[platinumsage]

So you wouldn't mind if someone destroyed your home town, as long as you were given a warning to evacuate in 24 hours? To where would you move the patients in your local hospital?

Is that what I said? Maybe have another read.

 

[PTK]

Is that what I said? Maybe have another read.

Sorry, I thought that what was you were implying.

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[Knotted]

Regardless of what is happening in Gaza, holocaust comparisons are taunts at Jews as Jews in most contexts even if that isn't the intent.

 

[The39thStep]

Gaza civilians , of which nearly half the population are under 18, will have had more bombs dropped on them in a week than what the US dropped in Afganistan within a year or NATO in the duration of their war in Libya.

From The Washington Post

 

[kabbes]

Yes you said that Israel is "reenacting with Palestinians the genocide that was perpetrated on Jews".

You didn't simply say it was genocide, but that it was a reenactment of a specific genocide i.e. the holocaust. If that's not what you meant why use that phrasing?

It was clumsy phrasing, I will agree. However, even as phrased, it doesn’t refer to a literal copy of the same act, in the same way that an abuser reenacting their childhood abuse will not literally copy each element of that abuse play-by-play. The reenactment of trauma refers to reproducing any of the actions, behaviours or relationship patterns associated with that trauma in subsequent situations or relationships. The argument (not my argument, I’m just noting that the argument exists) would be that for the Israelis to visit genocide on this low-power group that they have at their mercy is very much of the same pattern as what the Jews experienced at the hands of the Nazis.

 

[campanula]

The most persecuted people in the world, now persecuting people. I just don't get it. Despair at fucked up world.

 

[Yossarian]

For me, this comparison really brought home the size of the area that is being bombed so intensively

 

[platinumsage]

It was clumsy phrasing, I will agree. However, even as phrased, it doesn’t refer to a literal copy of the same act, in the same way that an abuser reenacting their childhood abuse will not literally copy each element of that abuse play-by-play. The reenactment of trauma refers to reproducing any of the actions, behaviours or relationship patterns associated with that trauma in subsequent situations or relationships. The argument (not my argument, I’m just noting that the argument exists) would be that for the Israelis to visit genocide on this low-power group that they have at their mercy is very much of the same pattern as what the Jews experienced at the hands of the Nazis.

I suppose that sort of clumsy phrasing is inevitable when you try to shoehorn in that-thing-that-you-just-learned-in-psychology-class into a discussion on war.

 

[Idris2002]

Gaza civilians , of which nearly half the population are under 18, will have had more bombs dropped on them in a week than what the US dropped in Afganistan within a year or NATO in the duration of their war in Libya.

From The Washington Post

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Surely this means that the casualty figures for Gaza must be radically underestimated?

 

[Knotted]

Let's not do the Israel learnt from the Nazis routine.

 

[not-bono-ever]

This next series of actions will obvs be hugely televised . The emerging narrative embraced will be compare and contrast exercise

 

[kabbes]

I suppose that sort of clumsy phrasing is inevitable when you try to shoehorn in that-thing-that-you-just-learned-in-psychology-class into a discussion on war.

Never had you down as anti-education and anti-learning. Ah well, so be it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Regardless of what is happening in Gaza, holocaust comparisons are taunts at Jews as Jews in most contexts even if that isn't the intent.

the zionists have explicitly compared recent events to the holocaust, referring among other things to babi yar

 

[Knotted]

the zionists have explicitly compared recent events to the holocaust, referring among other things to babi yar

I don't have any problems with Jews understanding traumatic experiences in terms of their historical trauma. There was an activist/holocaust survivor called Hajo Meyer who wrote a book comparing Israel to Nazi Germany in the 30's. Applying his personal experience to current events - I think that's fine as well even if it may be historically questionable. Or you could make academic comparisons. I did leave a caveat of context in there.

I think if its a "you of all people" style argument or what Kabbes is doing here with a psychological theory about Israeli aggression then that's a different case. You're messing around with Jewish historical trauma. Probably just don't do that.

 

[SpookyFrank]

So the hostages? Bargaining chip or bluff?

More use to Israel dead than alive, unfortunately for them.

 

[vanya]

We were all supportive about the Hamas atrocity and then Israel responds in this dreadful way and we see the whole dynamic and weep.

 

[moochedit]

We were all supportive about the Hamas atrocity and then Israel responds in this dreadful way and we see the whole dynamic and weep.

Much like the initial reaction to 9/11 and then the reaction to the wars that followed it.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Had a conversation with my mum last night in which she was saying she always thought Israel was doomed - but didn't expect it to start unravelling quite so soon.

If it is the doom won’t be limited to that country…