Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[ska invita]

not for the first time

Rain of Fire

This 71-page report provides witness accounts of the devastating effects that white phosphorus munitions had on civilians and civilian property in Gaza.

www.hrw.org

 

[TomUS]

make an impossible to complete order then blame the civilian population for the carnage that follows

very chilling.. plus if they leave it will become a security buffer zone

So the aftermath of this Israeli invasion may well be a Gaza half the size it was but with the same number of impoverished Palestinians forced to live behind the wire.

 

[Ax^]

and the space taken , then being open to new Israeli settlements after the land has been raised and levelled

 

[A380]

So the aftermath of this Israeli invasion may well be a Gaza half the size it was but with the same number of impoverished Palestinians forced to live behind the wire.

Wouldn’t be that surprising. Presumably that’s one of the reasons lots of people in Gaza don’t want to leave, they strongly suspect they won’t ever get to come back to their homes. Although it’s also quite likely Hamas soldiers are putting pressure in people to stay as well.

 

[kabbes]

You know, there’s a whole host of literature out there applying a psychoanalytic lens to Israel as a nation, analogising its actions to the re-enactment of trauma that leads children who suffer abuse to become abusers as adults. I’ve never been that convinced, thinking that it pays too much attention to what is happening in the brain and too little to institutional systems and power dynamics. However, it’s hard to see Israel reenacting with Palestinians the genocide that was perpetrated on Jews and not think that maybe the psychodynamicists have point.

 

[ska invita]

a golden opportunity for someone like Netenyahu to further the job he lives to do - eradicate all Palestinians from within Israeli borders

and the space taken , then being open to new Israeli settlements after the land has been raised and levelled

Its been reported that the Israeli government knew these attacks were coming....

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says

But Israel's PM describes any claim it received a specific warning as "totally fake news".

www.bbc.co.uk

....which does open up the possibility that they let this happen in order to be able to launch such a war. Yes that's conspiratorial, true or not it does fit the mindset of the fundamentalists in power in Israel. Certainly a shock doctrine moment

 

[ska invita]

You know, there’s a whole host of literature out there applying a psychoanalytic lens to Israel as a nation, analogising its actions to the re-enactment of trauma that leads children who suffer abuse to become abusers as adults. I’ve never been that convinced, thinking that it pays too much attention to what is happening in the brain and too little to institutional systems and power dynamics. However, it’s hard to see Israel reenacting with Palestinians the genocide that was perpetrated on Jews and not think that maybe the psychodynamicists have point.

When I visited Auschwitz I was shocked - disgusted tbh - to see groups of young Israelis - IDF conscripts - walking around the site in full military fatigues, jack boots, and flying the Israeli flag. It was quite sickening as the strong lesson of visiting the camp is ABOLISH MILITARISM....that was not the lesson these young people were taking away

IMO a deliberate attempt to refuel, continue and remilitarise the trauma.

What's so great about graphic novel Maus is that it deals so honestly with the passing down of this trauma, though in that case within the context of an american jewish holocaust surviving family

 

[platinumsage]

it’s hard to see Israel reenacting with Palestinians the genocide that was perpetrated on Jews

That's what they're doing is it?

 

[Pickman's model]

When I visited Auschwitz I was shocked - disgusted tbh - to see groups of young Israelis - IDF conscripts - walking around the site in full military fatigues, jack boots, and flying the Israeli flag. It was quite sickening as the strong lesson of visiting the camp is ABOLISH MILITARISM....that was not the lesson these young people were taking away

IMO a deliberate attempt to refuel, continue and remilitarise the trauma.

What's so great about graphic novel Maus is that it deals so honestly with the passing down of this trauma, though in that case within the context of an american jewish holocaust surviving family

i thought the strong lesson of the camp would be to abolish fascism. but then i've never visited auschwitz.

 

[Pickman's model]

a golden opportunity for someone like Netenyahu to further the job he lives to do - eradicate all Palestinians from within Israeli borders


Its been reported that the Israeli government knew these attacks were coming....

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says

But Israel's PM describes any claim it received a specific warning as "totally fake news".

www.bbc.co.uk

....which does open up the possibility that they let this happen in order to be able to launch such a war. Yes that's conspiratorial, true or not it does fit the mindset of the fundamentalists in power in Israel. Certainly a shock doctrine moment

yeh we've had these warning stories upthread, and ap reports on a video of hamas training for the assault Hamas practiced in plain sight, posting video of mock attack weeks before border breach so it's not like the zionists didn't have information coming in, complacency and arrogance were two of hamas's allies

 

[frogwoman]

and the space taken , then being open to new Israeli settlements after the land has been raised and levelled

Israeli settlements in Gaza? They'd have to be absolutely suicidally insane

 

[A380]

When I visited Auschwitz I was shocked - disgusted tbh - to see groups of young Israelis - IDF conscripts - walking around the site in full military fatigues, jack boots, and flying the Israeli flag. It was quite sickening as the strong lesson of visiting the camp is ABOLISH MILITARISM....

Yes, because the way the Third Reich withered away in the face of robust political analysis, supported by some intelligently applied non violent direct action is a lesson to everyone.

 

[Ax^]

clear the zone and with a heavy military presence to back you up some people may taken advantage

land is a premium

 

[ska invita]

i thought the strong lesson of the camp would be to abolish fascism. but then i've never visited auschwitz.

Militarism is the heart beat and logic of fascism...

 

[kabbes]

That's what they're doing is it?

What would you call it when you deny 2 million people access to food, water, medicine and power, and then bomb them?

 

[A380]

Israeli settlements in Gaza? They'd have to be absolutely suicidally insane

Or be composed of settlers so arrogant in the belief that the current Israeli government would spend a fortune and many lives backing them up if they did try to set them up,

 

[Pickman's model]

Militarism is the heart beat and logic of fascism...

i'm not sure that it is, being as there are a fuckton of examples of militaristic states from before the twentieth century which were not fascist. however, as you've been to auschwitz and so have the advantage of knowing what message they present there i'll defer to you on this one

 

[The39thStep]

If Iran and Turkey row in...maybe this is it

I suspect Erdogan is keener on being seen to be on the side of the Palestinians side but available as a broker tbh. Anyway we should be due a few 'peace' initiatives after Israel has used its window of opportunity to reach its culling point

 

[AnnaKarpik]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

Israel has told 1.1 million people in the northern half of the Gaza strip to move to the southern half within 24 hours.

Is the plan to reduce the size of Gaza by 50%? This is horrible.

Grant Schapps on R4 Today this morning floundering when questioned about this. It's pointed out to him that people who don't have fuel, or roads for that matter, cannot comply and after repeating that Israel has done the right thing by warning them he is reduced to complaining that the Beeb don't describe Hamas as terrorists then gets a lesson on the Ofcom code for broadcasters.

 

[MickiQ]

Grant Schapps on R4 Today this morning floundering when questioned about this. It's pointed out to him that people who don't have fuel, or roads for that matter, cannot comply and after repeating that Israel has done the right thing by warning them he is reduced to complaining that the Beeb don't describe Hamas as terrorists then gets a lesson on the Ofcom code for broadcasters.

Tbh the only reason anyone might interview Shapps is that none of the breeze blocks had any free time in their schedule.

 

[platinumsage]

What would you call it when you deny 2 million people access to food, water, medicine and power, and then bomb them?

Not every war is a re-enactment of the holocaust. Are you seriously comparing Hamas to the Jews in pre-War Germany? Have you seen the gas chambers for systemically executing all the Israeli-Arabs? I don't know any school kids who would make such a facile analogy as you did there.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not every war is a re-enactment of the holocaust. Are you seriously comparing Hamas to the Jews in pre-War Germany? Have you seen the gas chambers for systemically executing all the Israeli-Arabs? I don't know any school kids who would make such a facile analogy as you did there.

anyone who knows anything about the holocaust will know, as indeed netanyahu made reference, about the killings outside death camps, at ravines like babi yar and so on - i saw a site near vilnius where many thousands of jews had been killed in a forest and their bodies burned. the death marches at the end of the war. it's not all auschwitz and sobibor and treblinka you know.

 

[Duncan2]

Not every war is a re-enactment of the holocaust. Are you seriously comparing Hamas to the Jews in pre-War Germany? Have you seen the gas chambers for systemically executing all the Israeli-Arabs? I don't know any school kids who would make such a facile analogy as you did there.

Herding people by the millions is certainly very ominous

 

[A380]

Grant Schapps on R4 Today this morning floundering when questioned about this. It's pointed out to him that people who don't have fuel, or roads for that matter, cannot comply and after repeating that Israel has done the right thing by warning them he is reduced to complaining that the Beeb don't describe Hamas as terrorists then gets a lesson on the Ofcom code for broadcasters.

To be fair to Shaps, when they asked him on to talk about Israel and Palestine he probably thought they meant Train tracks and play dough…

 

[two sheds]

Did he pretend to be someone else?

 

[kebabking]

Grant Schapps on R4 Today this morning floundering when questioned about this. It's pointed out to him that people who don't have fuel, or roads for that matter, cannot comply and after repeating that Israel has done the right thing by warning them...

He is a fool. (Potentially career-ending statement from me there, given that he's my boss, and politicians tend not to cope well with challenge).

If your plan requires a million people to move in 24 hours, and you know that they can't, then you need a new plan.

Even if the 24 hours proves to be a somewhat elastic concept, the negative effects of a million people trying to move in 24 hours are deeply problematic from a humanitarian and moral - and I would argue, political in the medium/long term - standpoint.

I think the Israelis have really fucked up with this - and Shapps could have skirted the issue by simply saying (and resaying) that we are in constant contact with the Israelis to both support them, and to offer our candid advice as a friend. That might not have pleased the interviewer (I listened to it), but it would have avoided answering the direct question and allowed anyone listening to hear what they want to hear - we are supporting the Israelis, but we are not saying that this is a good idea.

 

[platinumsage]

anyone who knows anything about the holocaust will know, as indeed netanyahu made reference, about the killings outside death camps, at ravines like babi yar and so on - i saw a site near vilnius where many thousands of jews had been killed in a forest and their bodies burned. the death marches at the end of the war. it's not all auschwitz and sobibor and treblinka you know.

I fail to see the relevance of that obvious point to the matter at hand.

 

[two sheds]

I'm not sure it's a good idea for the US and UK to be sending military support for Israel while it slaughters thousands? of civilians.

 

[platinumsage]

Herding people by the millions is certainly very ominous

Warning civilians to evacuate before attacking is something that doesn't even happen in most wars, so I'm not sure it's suggestive of the holocaust. But Jewish people are doing it so go off I guess.

 

[Rimbaud]

Not every war is a re-enactment of the holocaust. Are you seriously comparing Hamas to the Jews in pre-War Germany? Have you seen the gas chambers for systemically executing all the Israeli-Arabs? I don't know any school kids who would make such a facile analogy as you did there.

Not all genocides are identical to the holocaust. They are all different. It doesn't mean that genocide is not a very real possible outcome here. A forced march of a million en masse without provisions, water or fuel and under fire is exactly what the Armenian genocide was.