Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Knotted]

West Bank under a blockade.

Palestinians in occupied West Bank are under Israeli lockdown

Israeli authorities have placed the entire occupied West Bank under lockdown.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Yeah, right. Your true identity is Agent Three and a Half.

I was joking in light of an absurd request.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

People are actually quibbling about Iranian involvement while a genocide is being carried out. Hamas probably had meetings with the Iranian government, Israeli government probably has meetings with the US government. So what? This isn't a chessboard for your fantasy game of chess, it's not an opportunity to show off your smart alec conspiracy theories. As Clare Dale said, if you haven't got anything constructive to say then shut up.

This is a meaningless point, analysis of the influence of Iran is critical to understanding this conflict and there’s no resolution to it without Iran being dealt with.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Measured response and completely illegal under international law.

 

[rubbershoes]

This is a meaningless point, analysis of the influence of Iran is critical to understanding this conflict and there’s no resolution to it without Iran being dealt with.

Indeed. Consider what Hamas imagined they would gain from this attack compared to what Iran gains.

Hamas are going to get hammered by the IDF and have significantly damaged the Palestinians' chances of statehood.

The only people who come out of this happy is the Iranian government

 

[Knotted]

This is a meaningless point, analysis of the influence of Iran is critical to understanding this conflict and there’s no resolution to it without Iran being dealt with.

You want to bring Iran into the fray? OK.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I'm sure everyone here knows this, but... maybe concise explainer for friends/family who don't.

The double standard with Israel and Palestine leaves us in moral darkness | Moustafa Bayoumi

Biden and Zelenskiy support a war they say was ‘unprovoked’ but a defenseless population will pay for media misinformation

www.theguardian.com

 

[Rimbaud]

They are blockading West Bank now.

Palestinians in occupied West Bank are under Israeli lockdown

Israeli authorities have placed the entire occupied West Bank under lockdown.

www.aljazeera.com

They are also distributing weapons to Israeli settlers and people in border towns.

Ben Gvir’s ministry to buy 10,000 guns for civilian security teams

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

Who have been known to go indiscriminately attack Palestinian communities:

Armed Israeli settlers rampage through Palestinian town in revenge attack

Palestinians say man was killed and 10 were injured after settlers rampaged through West Bank town and army opened fire

www.theguardian.com

UN reports says West Bank settler violence has displaced over 1,100 Palestinians since last year

Researchers say that as settlements expand under Netanyahu's far-right government and more newly established outposts are authorized, Palestinians living in villages nearby are experiencing unprecedented levels of violence.

www.pbs.org

And are in fact already doing so:

Israeli settlers aren’t pausing the expulsion and dispossession in the West Bank

***

www.haaretz.com

Combined with the siege of Gaza and imminent ground invasion and surging anger over Hamas' attacks, the conditions are ripe for genocide. I don't think you could have any clearer warning signs.

I pray that Israel exercises restraint, but if not the consequences of this will be huge and won't be confined to the Middle East. There will be reprisals in Europe as well and significantly heightened ethnic tensions and another refugee crisis. It will be like 2016 again but worse.

The stupidity of our politicians is staggering. They are walking into a disaster of their own creation with their unconditional support for Israel's response. How hard is it to say two wrongs don't make a right and demand - at the very least - a humanitarian corridor to allow deliveries of food, water and medicine?

 

[Knotted]

I don't think it is appropriate to view this calamity in terms of socialist politics, I don't think it is appropriate to think in terms of national liberation, I don't think it is appropriate to think of it in terms of marching towards Islamic rule, it's certainly not appropriate to think of it in terms of geo-political machinations, it's not even appropriate to think in terms of retaliation and revenge. If you want to help the Palestinians think of it in terms of survival and that includes prior to 7th October. We need a politics of survival.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think it is appropriate to view this calamity in terms of socialist politics, I don't think it is appropriate to think in terms of national liberation, I don't think it is appropriate to think of it in terms of marching towards Islamic rule, it's certainly not appropriate to think of it in terms of geo-political machinations, it's not even appropriate to think in terms of retaliation and revenge. If you want to help the Palestinians think of it in terms of survival and that includes prior to 7th October. We need a politics of survival.

There's a lot of not thinking going on there. You seem to be saying this is so unique that the analytical tools you might be considering using won't work. Then you propose something which you don't bother to elaborate, perhaps because it's clearly bollocks. It sounds more that you're interested in the politics of Netanyahu who will swerve and swivel as required for his political survival and not those of an actual solution.

 

[tim]

You want to bring Iran into the fray? OK.

Iran is in the fray. In the the PressTV broadcasts I mention above, Williamson and Miller boast about the fact that Iran is the only country that arms all Palestinian factions.

In turn the Israelis have supported the Azerbaijanis in their conflict with Armenia. This upsets Iran because mody Azerbaijanis live not in the Republic of Azet but in the Iranian Provinces of East Azerbaijan and West Azerbaijan, and the Iranian Dictatorship is very protective of its empire and don't want bits sloping of to unite with other entities.

 

[tim]

There's a lot of not thinking going on there.

Thoughts do not have to be coherent.

 

[Knotted]

Iran is in the fray. In the the PressTV broadcasts I mention above, Williamson and Miller boast about the fact that Iran is the only country that arms all Palestinian factions.

In turn the Israelis have supported the Azerbaijanis in their conflict with Armenia. This upsets Iran because mody Azerbaijanis live not in the Republic of Azet but in the Iranian Provinces of East Azerbaijan and West Azerbaijan, and the Iranian Dictatorship is very protective of its empire and don't want bits sloping of to unite with other entities.

I am utterly uninterested in where Palestinians get weapons from, just glad that they have them.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thoughts do not have to be coherent.

No indeed. But the absence of thought will never be coherent

 

[LDC]

People are actually quibbling about Iranian involvement while a genocide is being carried out. Hamas probably had meetings with the Iranian government, Israeli government probably has meetings with the US government. So what? This isn't a chessboard for your fantasy game of chess, it's not an opportunity to show off your smart alec conspiracy theories. As Clare Dale said, if you haven't got anything constructive to say then shut up.

I don't think it is appropriate to view this calamity in terms of socialist politics, I don't think it is appropriate to think in terms of national liberation, I don't think it is appropriate to think of it in terms of marching towards Islamic rule, it's certainly not appropriate to think of it in terms of geo-political machinations, it's not even appropriate to think in terms of retaliation and revenge. If you want to help the Palestinians think of it in terms of survival and that includes prior to 7th October. We need a politics of survival.

And numerous other posts of yours...

Wasn't it you that suggested people take some time or pause to think carefully about things rather than reacting? Yet you're throwing all analysis and politics out on some wildly emotional plea for survival no matter what atrocities some people claming to represent others commit?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Again this morning dodgy statistics. This from the Guardian:-

"Gaza death toll rises to over 1,200. The death toll in Gaza rose to 1,200 early Thursday, the Palestinian health ministry said, including 51 people killed in what the Israeli military called a large-scale attack in the hours before daylight. The most recent Israeli death toll stands at 1,200."

So even Stevens eh? But what about the 1,500 Hamas fighters Israel claims to have killed? Why are their deaths not included in the counting?

 

[tim]

I am utterly uninterested in where Palestinians get weapons from, just glad that they have them.

Are you happy that Fascists murder people in their beds or whilst dancing at festivals? Do you think that those slaughtered deserved to die because they were Jews or in the case of the Bedouin the wrong kind of Palestinians? Or are you just a no omelette without broken eggs type?

 

[LDC]

Again this morning dodgy statistics. This from the Guardian:-

"Gaza death toll rises to over 1,200. The death toll in Gaza rose to 1,200 early Thursday, the Palestinian health ministry said, including 51 people killed in what the Israeli military called a large-scale attack in the hours before daylight. The most recent Israeli death toll stands at 1,200."

So even Stevens eh? But what about the 1,500 Hamas fighters Israel claims to have killed? Why are their deaths not included in the counting?

Because they were not killed in Gaza? They haven't not mentioned them, just counting differently, I don't think there's any great political reasoning or conspiracy behind this. You could argue by keeping them out then it's easier to look at civilian numbers killed in Gaza without people being able to say that some of the figures include Hamas fighters killed in Israel so aren't really valid.

 

[tim]

Again this morning dodgy statistics. This from the Guardian:-

"Gaza death toll rises to over 1,200.

So even Stevens eh? But what about the 1,500 Hamas fighters Israel claims to have killed? Why are their deaths not included in the counting?

The Israeli authorities need to give the impression of being able to do something. Claiming that they've killed lots of enemy combatants is a good way of doing that.

 

[teqniq]

I cannot read the rest of this, because it is behind a paywall, but I think it is interesting. Some might even say it was a warning of what was to come.​

"Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP Announce Intention to Escalate Conflict With Israel​

The Palestinian organizations say they have agreed to cooperate to intensify violent action against Israel
Jack KhouryYaniv KubovichHagar Shezaf

Sep 24, 2023

The Palestinian organizations Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have agreed to continue escalating security tensions and violent action against"

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP announce intention to escalate conflict with Israel

***

www.haaretz.com

archived link

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP Announce Intention to Escalate Conflict With Israel

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Because they were not killed in Gaza? They haven't not mentioned them, just counting differently, I don't think there's any great political reasoning or conspiracy behind this. You could argue by keeping them out then it's easier to look at civilian numbers killed in Gaza without people being able to say that some of the figures include Hamas fighters killed in Israel so aren't really valid.

I don't think there's any great deliberate conspiracy, but among sections/most of the western media there is a lack of enquiry and near uniformity of presentation. The Israeli deaths include soldiers, for example, some 189 last figures I saw. So in this conflict we should really be comparing 1,200 Israeli deaths against maybe 2,700 Palestinian. Already.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think there's any great deliberate conspiracy, but among sections/most of the western media there is a lack of enquiry and near uniformity of presentation. The Israeli deaths include soldiers, for example, some 189 last figures I saw. So in this conflict we should really be comparing 1,200 Israeli deaths against maybe 2,700 Palestinian. Already

Many journalists are very lazy. Also, don't assume they're dedicated pursuers of the truth, a great number will buy into the zionist narrative

 

[teqniq]

Why are you so keen to downplay or deny these atrocities?

Biden has just confirmed he's seen evidence of the beheadings, and while I'm still not taking that as absolute confirmation that they definitely happened, the desperation by people to instantly denounce the claims as lies, sure does fit in to the denial/apologist pathway I mentioned upthread.

Except that:

 

[Knotted]

And numerous other posts of yours...

Wasn't it you that suggested people take some time or pause to think carefully about things rather than reacting? Yet you're throwing all analysis and politics out on some wildly emotional plea for survival no matter what atrocities some people claming to represent others commit?

I would suggest people react with patience to emotional reactive posts because they're to be expected and we should remember that nobody here has any power to shape events even tangentially. But accepting the survival situation in Gaza isn't emotional process at least for me, right now it's plain reality and I keep going on about it because that should be the thing that focuses minds.

 

[keybored]

I decided to fact-check the last tweet and lo and behold

Apparently some of their kids (Haniyeh's nephews/nieces) served in the IDF. Awkward conversations at family gatherings.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm sure everyone here knows this, but... maybe concise explainer for friends/family who don't.

The double standard with Israel and Palestine leaves us in moral darkness | Moustafa Bayoumi

Biden and Zelenskiy support a war they say was ‘unprovoked’ but a defenseless population will pay for media misinformation

www.theguardian.com

As article says peaceful ways of opposing occupation are being curtailed or labelled anti semitic. Such as support for BDS.

I wonder what exactly Palestinians are supposed to do about their situation. As seems to me that whatever they try to do is labelled as wrong.

As article says the peace process was a sham.

The historian Rashid Khalidi ( American Palestinian) discusses this in his book The Hundred Years war on Palestine. He played a small part in the long years of negotiations. His view now is that no Israeli government is going to agree to Palestinian statehood. During the negotiations the Israeli governments dictated who they would and who they would not talk with on the Palestinian side. US did not use the pressure it could have to make them negotiate in a meaningful way.

Palestinian civil society in the Intifada was crushed. Basically Palestinians largely live under perpetual military rule since 48.

Exactly what are they supposed to do to get their rights? What avenues are left open to them which do not involve acts of violence?

I heard Khalidi on news yesterday. He was not supporting Hamas actions but said that prior to this with the so called normalisation process western powers thought they could ignore the Palestinian people stuck in the occupied territories and Gaza. If the action of Hamas has done one thing its put paid to the so called normalisation process.

 

[LDC]

I would suggest people react with patience to emotional reactive posts because they're to be expected and we should remember that nobody here has any power to shape events even tangentially. But accepting the survival situation in Gaza isn't emotional process at least for me, right now it's plain reality and I keep going on about it because that should be the thing that focuses minds.

But isn't this 'war for survival' exactly what 'both sides' claim, so just replicating that is just dismal and gives us no paths out of this at all?

To claim it's 'plain reality' and that you're not being emotional or analysing it is just nonsense.

 

[Pickman's model]

I would suggest people react with patience to emotional reactive posts because they're to be expected and we should remember that nobody here has any power to shape events even tangentially. But accepting the survival situation in Gaza isn't emotional process at least for me, right now it's plain reality and I keep going on about it because that should be the thing that focuses minds.

i think you'll find that there are range of levels of events ranging from the ones in the middle east, which as you say we aren't going to change. but then there are also events here, on these boards and in the lives of the people posting, which we very much do have the power to affect. so from my pov emotionally reactive posts like isn't it all so bloody horrible are a waste of both the author's and the readers' time, as they do nothing to amuse, educate, or illuminate events.

 

[strung out]

Except that:

View attachment 395103

Which is exactly why I said that I'm not taking Biden's comments as absolute confirmation that some of the atrocities happened as reported.

The point is to not take everything at face value, but also to not be too quick to denounce reports as 'lies', particularly when the poster in question has form for denying and/or downplaying many of the atrocities, such as references to 'so called Hamas massacres' and appearing to say that the peaceful music festival where 260 young people were murdered was 'nothing of the sort'.

Regardless of whether the babies/toddlers were beheaded, shot through the head, had their throats cut or suffered some other kind of gruesome end, can't we at least acknowledge the horror of these deaths without denouncing every shocking report as lies?

 

[teqniq]

Which is exactly why I said that I'm not taking Biden's comments as absolute confirmation that some of the atrocities happened as reported.

The point is to not take everything at face value, but also to not be too quick to denounce reports as 'lies', particularly when the poster in question has form for denying and/or downplaying many of the atrocities, such as references to 'so called Hamas massacres' and appearing to say that the peaceful music festival where 260 young people were murdered was 'nothing of the sort'.

Regardless of whether the babies/toddlers were beheaded, shot through the head, had their throats cut or suffered some other kind of gruesome end, can't we at least acknowledge the horror of these deaths without denouncing every shocking report as lies?

I was merely pointing out that yet again it's another case of misreporting.