Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[HazeyCosmicJive]

Why are you so keen to downplay or deny these atrocities?

Biden has just confirmed he's seen evidence of the beheadings, and while I'm still not taking that as absolute confirmation that they definitely happened, the desperation by people to instantly denounce the claims as lies, sure does fit in to the denial/apologist pathway I mentioned upthread.

I have seen a couple of pics of IDF soldiers without heads and one video of Hamas trying to chop off a civilians head (looks like it is in his own house) with some sort of garden hoe. So definitely is happening. Don't know about children though.

 

[tim]

The Republic of Egypt ought to open the Rafah crossing to the people of the Gaza Strip, send in relief supplies, and mobilise the Egyptian armed forces to protect supplies going in, and people leaving.

But obviously they won't because the Egypt government is a brutal dictatorship that is too focused in keeping its own population under the cosh.

It's like saying:

Hamas ought to...
Netanyahu ought to...
That nice Prince Mohammed bin Salman ought to ...
Putin ought to ...

 

[belboid]

A fiver on it that he did.

Plenty on how PWC funded his various private offices and projects, back in the day. When anyone could remember who he was.

 

[Ax^]

err I don't think they're quite like people on the right, certainly not the far right

as i neve mentioned anyone only reply to a post linking me in

it depends on who we are talking about Williamson gave a platform to Peterson and is as he dodgy as fuck
and has applied different labels to suit

 

[cesare]

I was more wondering how prevalent her views are. At one point she said that ( of the Kibbutz she visited) these people have been their seventy years where are they supposed to go.She did not appear to have any awareness that Palestinians were kicked off their land for this. Almost felt like she thought that why cant people just stop going on about Palestinians. Why cant they just go away.

When Owen Jones said the Netanyahu government was far right ( he was correctly distinguishing between the people and the government who make decisions) she winced saying she did not support him BUT Israel had right to defend itself. So she did support his military response but not him. I can understand why some Palestinians can get pissed of with liberal Zionist supporters. If her opinions are representative. Her view was the We must stand by Israel one. Which is fast becoming the only line decent people can take.

I think many people similarly don't appreciate what happened to the Palestinians. The last time everything kicked off I asked for suggestions to better understand the background my partner suggested reading Ilan Pappe. I haven't been self disciplined enough to read all of his works but I've read what I think to be the key piece that provides the backdrop of what happened on establishing Israel. I look back now and wonder at how much I had just taken as read the slant that was put on reporting and contextualising - and just how invested the UK is in maintaining its state stance. I don't think I'm alone in my naivety from back then.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think many people similarly don't appreciate what happened to the Palestinians. The last time everything kicked off I asked for suggestions to better understand the background my partner suggested reading Ilan Pappe. I haven't been self disciplined enough to read all of his works but I've read what I think to be the key piece that provides the backdrop of what happened on establishing Israel. I look back now and wonder at how much I had just taken as read the slant that was put on reporting and contextualising - and just how invested the UK is in maintaining its state stance. I don't think I'm alone in my naivety from back then.

Beyond chutzpah. Read beyond chutzpah. Beyond Chutzpah - Wikipedia it's auld but definitely worth a read

 

[tim]

Oh come on, there are definitely people on the left who do more than that. Look at Chris Williamson mentioned above, or George Galloway, and loads of posts on social media. Of course you can criticise Israel's actions and policies and the IDF without being antisemitic but there are plenty of people who can't seem to manage it. They might be a minority but they're poison and it's essential we acknowledge it for what it is and call it out.

Williamson and Galloway are not on the Left. They are both on the far-Right.The former is a Quisling lickspittle of the reactionary Iranian Dictatorship. He's just made a broadcast praising Raeisi the Iranian President who in 1988 sent death squads into prisons to murder Communist and Socialist prisoners and told the world that "Israelis make a career out if victimhood".

The latter is a misogynistic chancer and a thug who has spent the last 40 years taking advantage of the gullibility of others. Even the Russians no longer seem to want to employ him

 

[cesare]

Beyond chutzpah. Read beyond chutzpah. Beyond Chutzpah - Wikipedia it's auld but definitely worth a read

Definitely Chutzpah, not Beyond Chutzpah?

 

[cesare]

Definitely Chutzpah, not Beyond Chutzpah?

Ok seen your edit, cheers

 

[Humberto]

There has to be a negotiation (which the White House spokesperson says may be on the cards). For the hostages, for the humanitarian needs of Gaza's people. Completely unreasonable to expect elite soldier units to save the day re: hostages, you don't write 150 people off. There has to be a commitment to international law, not calling for it in Ukraine with all solemnity and then throwing the principle out in one week in outrage.

 

[belboid]

Beyond chutzpah. Read beyond chutzpah. Beyond Chutzpah - Wikipedia it's auld but definitely worth a read

It’s a great book, but it is very specific, arguing against distinct points as raised by Dershowitz. It’s useful and well worth being on the list of books to read, but it’s so specific it can seem like nit-picking, even to a pedant like me.

 

[PTK]

Egypt president's office https://www.presidency.eg/EN scroll down, use the share an idea link

It requires my passport number, and I do not have a passport.

 

[cesare]

It’s a great book, but it is very specific, arguing against distinct points as raised by Dershowitz. It’s useful and well worth being on the list of books to read, but it’s so specific it can seem like nit-picking, even to a pedant like me.

I've ordered it now. Interesting that I couldn't get a Kindle version "under review" - needed to buy it from Abe Books.

I'm better off with broad brush then drill down but hopefully I'll be able to make myself read the detail.

 

[PTK]

Iran’s been a funder and supporter for Hamas for years. Senior Hamas members met with Iranian leadership days before the terror attacks…

Do you have the minutes of the meeting?

 

[belboid]

Interesting that I couldn't get a Kindle version "under review" - needed to buy it from Abe Books.

I don’t think there is any political reason for its unavailability, loads of books from then haven’t been released in e-format. They just weren’t saved in the right way and there are all sorts of contractual issues for new formats.

 

[PTK]

I wish certain stupid polticians would not keep using the word "terrorist" as a sear word rather than a description.

 

[belboid]

But what about the relatively sane ones who use it as a swear word?

 

[CH1]

Plenty on how PWC funded his various private offices and projects, back in the day. When anyone could remember who he was.

Since you're in the know - I thought I saw many years ago that SKWAWKBOX has made a donation (£600?) to Chukka for running the Streatham Labour office.
But then again it might have been Squawkbox. Quite a difference,
I did try looking it up - but seems like expenses and donations are only published for sitting MPs.
You have Chris Williamson to thank for the kaleidoscopic career https://members.parliament.uk/member/4128/career

 

[tim]

I was more wondering how prevalent her views are. At one point she said that ( of the Kibbutz she visited) these people have been their seventy years where are they supposed to go.She did not appear to have any awareness that Palestinians were kicked off their land for this. Almost felt like she thought that why cant people just stop going on about Palestinians. Why cant they just go away.

And many of those on the kibbutz and many other Israelis or their parents or grandparents would have been kicked out of their homes and off their land Europe or the Middle East. Do you have much awareness of that? Or do you just swallow the antiSemitic like that Israel is a European colonial entity created by greedy Jews?

The British, Soviets, the French spent much of the late 1940s overseeing the creation of new ethnic and religious states and deporting large groups of people who didn't fit in. Israel was created in the same way that Pakistan was, although probably with less bloodshed; and Poland which moved a hundred or more kilometres Westward and went from being 60% Roman Catholic to well over 90%.

 

[tim]

It requires my passport number, and I do not have a passport.

Spymaster has a passport and will be very willing to relay your message to the Egyptian Junta.

 

[PTK]

I cannot read the rest of this, because it is behind a paywall, but I think it is interesting. Some might even say it was a warning of what was to come.​

"Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP Announce Intention to Escalate Conflict With Israel​

The Palestinian organizations say they have agreed to cooperate to intensify violent action against Israel
Jack KhouryYaniv KubovichHagar Shezaf

Sep 24, 2023

The Palestinian organizations Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have agreed to continue escalating security tensions and violent action against"

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP announce intention to escalate conflict with Israel

***

www.haaretz.com

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I assume that there was Iranian involvement in making this attack possible. However, Iran and Israel are both regional powers, and neither has the power to wipe out the other. That doesn't mean that they try and make life difficult for each other, resulting in plenty of death.

They both have the power to wipe each other out. Iran is more than a regional power.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Do you have the minutes of the meeting?

No but I've seen the intelligence.

 

[Duncan2]

And many of those on the kibbutz and many other Israelis or their parents or grandparents would have been kicked out of their homes and off their land Europe or the Middle East. Do you have much awareness of that? Or do you just swallow the antiSemitic like that Israel is a European colonial entity created by greedy Jews?

The British, Soviets, the French spent much of the late 1940s overseeing the creation of new ethnic and religious states and deporting large groups of people who didn't fit in. Israel was created in the same way that Pakistan was, although probably with less bloodshed; and Poland which moved a hundred or more kilometres Westward and went from being 60% Roman Catholic to well over 90%.

tbf it wasn't the Palestinians that kicked the European Jewish population off their lands.At least afaik i haven't read Finkelstein's book yet.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've ordered it now. Interesting that I couldn't get a Kindle version "under review" - needed to buy it from Abe Books.

I'm better off with broad brush then drill down but hopefully I'll be able to make myself read the detail.

Reckon you'll find it a fascinating read

 

[PTK]

No but I've seen the intelligence.

Yeah, right. Your true identity is Agent Three and a Half.

 

[Knotted]

People are actually quibbling about Iranian involvement while a genocide is being carried out. Hamas probably had meetings with the Iranian government, Israeli government probably has meetings with the US government. So what? This isn't a chessboard for your fantasy game of chess, it's not an opportunity to show off your smart alec conspiracy theories. As Clare Dale said, if you haven't got anything constructive to say then shut up.

 

[petee]

I think many people similarly don't appreciate what happened to the Palestinians. The last time everything kicked off I asked for suggestions to better understand the background my partner suggested reading Ilan Pappe. I haven't been self disciplined enough to read all of his works but I've read what I think to be the key piece that provides the backdrop of what happened on establishing Israel.

Ten Myths about Israel is available as a pdf online.

 

[Knotted]

‘I can’t save them’: Time running out at Gaza hospitals amid power blackout

Life-saving machines running on generators will soon stop working, amid Israel’s refusal to allow fuel supplies.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[likesfish]

tbf it wasn't the Palestinians that kicked the European Jewish population off their lands.At least afaik i haven't read Finkelstein's book yet.

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world - Wikipedia it wasn't exactly one way but the Palestinians of course didn't get any of the land or property