Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Bit mixed. East and North mostly abstained, but not all. Norway, Luxembourg voted yes. France also a yes, which is notable, I think. Portugal, Spain both yes, and Ireland. Poland was a Y from east Europe, interestingly.

So yeah, pretty mixed with no definite pattern.

Maybe I missed something but EU appears to have disappeared when it comes to this foreign policy issue. With individual EU countries working together. For example Spain and Ireland on the pro Palestine side for example. Other countries like Germany taking opposite positions.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Maybe I missed something but EU appears to have disappeared when it comes to this foreign policy issue. With individual EU countries working together. For example Spain and Ireland on the pro Palestine side for example. Other countries like Germany taking opposite positions.

The idea of an EU foreign policy is promoted in a self-serving way by the likes of Van der Leyen and sucked up by the media, but how much has it ever been a reality? The EU doesn't have a seat at the UN, and it is frankly an irrelevance when it comes to issues like this.

 

[magneze]

US finds Israel’s use of weapons in Gaza ‘inconsistent’ with human rights law, but will not cut flow of arms

State department also says not enough concrete evidence to link specific US-supplied weapons to violations

www.theguardian.com

Unexpected

 

[Dogsauce]

See Ukraine abstained. Would have thought they logically should support Palestine

Think they’d like to get their hands on some of Israel’s mothballed Patriot air defence units. Realpolitik innit.

 

[Rimbaud]

Pathetic list of abstentions from Europe. Czechia and Hungary even voted No. Argentina now a cesspool of cunts voted No. There does seem to be a pocket of Pacific objection. Papua New Guinea!

Hungary and Argentina unsurprising but why Czechia in particular?

 

[Gramsci]

US finds Israel’s use of weapons in Gaza ‘inconsistent’ with human rights law, but will not cut flow of arms

State department also says not enough concrete evidence to link specific US-supplied weapons to violations

www.theguardian.com

Unexpected

FFS "not sufficient evidence" to stop arms supplies.

Now that IDF/ Israeli government are clearly attacking Rafah that's a redline crossed and nothing being done to stop it.

 

[Gramsci]

The Guardian view on Israel’s far right: occupation of Palestinian territory feeds its extremism | Editorial

Editorial: Smarter sanctions must end the state sponsorship that allows settlements to grow and the political influence of religious zealots to flourish

www.theguardian.com

Guardian makes correct point that settlements in West Bank are not due to right wing settlers but state directed.

Argues for not just sanctioning hard line settlers but sections of the state

However imo settlement building since 67 has largely been state directed or allowed by state. With government subsidies for settlements.

What's needed is clear direction by Western countries and US that to make a two state solution all these settlements must go. The guardian article doesn't mention what a real two state solution would entail. And how to force Israel state to do this.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hungary and Argentina unsurprising but why Czechia in particular?

It's a surprise, certainly. Centre-right Poland voted Yes. Czechia has a horrible r/w government but the ruling party modelled themselves on the Tories eek: ). The Tory thing to do in such circumstances wrt foreign policy is generally to be gutless and abstain, as they did.

Founded in 1991 as the pro–free market wing of the Civic Forum by Václav Klaus and modeled on the British Conservative Party

Civic Democratic Party (Czech Republic) - Wikipedia

 

[agricola]

The Guardian view on Israel’s far right: occupation of Palestinian territory feeds its extremism | Editorial

Editorial: Smarter sanctions must end the state sponsorship that allows settlements to grow and the political influence of religious zealots to flourish

www.theguardian.com

Guardian makes correct point that settlements in West Bank are not due to right wing settlers but state directed.

Argues for not just sanctioning hard line settlers but sections of the state

However imo settlement building since 67 has largely been state directed or allowed by state. With government subsidies for settlements.

What's needed is clear direction by Western countries and US that to make a two state solution all these settlements must go. The guardian article doesn't mention what a real two state solution would entail. And how to force Israel state to do this.

Sanctions are not the right way to deal with this though, especially not an escalating series of them - the Israeli state will just apply ever worsening conditions to the Palestinians (especially in the West Bank) whilst blaming the sanctions and the US (and others) will help circumvent them. The existence of the settlements will be protected by severe violence, both against the Palestinians and individual within (or any section of) Israeli society that tries to do something about them such as removal - so the international community must use other measures to get this.

I doubt military force would work (given the nukes), but a big part of the world breaking off all contact - diplomatic, economic, overflights, air travel to Israel etc - until the issue is resolved probably would.

 

[Gramsci]

Sanctions are not the right way to deal with this though, especially not an escalating series of them - the Israeli state will just apply ever worsening conditions to the Palestinians (especially in the West Bank) whilst blaming the sanctions and the US (and others) will help circumvent them. The existence of the settlements will be protected by severe violence, both against the Palestinians and individual within (or any section of) Israeli society that tries to do something about them such as removal - so the international community must use other measures to get this.

I doubt military force would work (given the nukes), but a big part of the world breaking off all contact - diplomatic, economic, overflights, air travel to Israel etc - until the issue is resolved probably would.

Your last sentence is what Id say are sanctions. Not disagreeing with you here.

I think main thing would be for all those western countries who supply weapons to ban weapons and any kind of military support to Israel.

Had another read of Guardian view. Think I've been a bit unfair.

International diplomacy favours an Israel-Hamas ceasefire and the release of Israeli hostages, alongside a long-term peace plan to dismantle illegal settlements and an eventual return to Israel’s 1967 borders, within which Jewish Israelis constitute a clear democratic majority. Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is contemptuous of such ideas. His voters are not far behind, shaped by the steady accretion of settlements and land seizures. It has become a mainstream view in Israel that the country has no choice – for security reasons – but to keep control of the occupied territories and flout UN resolutions demanding it withdraw.

It is clear today that the consequence of military action and settlement building for a majority of Palestinians is either the threat of imminent death, forcible expulsion or else the loss of land and livelihood, with little option but to go into exile.

Pre the assault on Gaza imo anyone saying this would have been labelled a loony lefty.

Guardian are saying remove settlements and have a real state for Palestinians. That's how I read it.

 

[Gramsci]

Another mainstream news service does in depth report on Israel prisons for those arrested in Gaza.

Makes harrowing reading. They have had a couple of brave Israeli whistleblowers who have given them photos and anonymous reports of how badly Palestinians are treated.

CNN also talked to those released.

The direct and circumstantial evidence has built up.

These under Israeli law are military prisons to process those arrested. People can be held in theory for limited time.

The picture that emerges is one where Palestinians are humiliated and under psychological mistreatment. And worse.

I think this is credible report by mainstream news organisation.

Israel is doing itself no favours here.

Think its useful to read something like this long read to get real picture of Israeli State.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html

 

[Elpenor]

UK abstained, quelle surprise:

View attachment 423885

Good to have the genocide enabling states on a list though, helps identify the axis of evil

 

[Knotted]

 

[Knotted]

Egypt says it will join South Africa’s genocide case against Israel at ICJ

Cairo says the move is due to Israel’s worsening attacks against civilians in Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

Considering Egypt is a US client state this is quite remarkable. Meanwhile even the Americans are saying Israel can't guarantee civilian safety in Rafah.

 

[teqniq]

In Gaza, it’s chaos and ruin everywhere

 

[Gramsci]

Egypt says it will join South Africa’s genocide case against Israel at ICJ

Cairo says the move is due to Israel’s worsening attacks against civilians in Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

Considering Egypt is a US client state this is quite remarkable. Meanwhile even the Americans are saying Israel can't guarantee civilian safety in Rafah.

I was a bit amazed reading this.

Egypt "normalised" relation wth State of Israel decades ago.

I can fully understand why its had enough. But surprised it made this symbolic move.

State of Israel treats those who give it support with contempt. Be they Biden or Egypt.

Israel is fast becoming a Pariah state. Not before time imo

Alon Liel, former director of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, told Al Jazeera that Egypt’s move was an “unbelievable diplomatic blow to Israel"
“Egypt is the cornerstone of our standing in the Middle East,” he said. The connections that Israel has in the Middle East and North Africa today, including with Jordan, the UAE and Morocco, are all “a result of what Egypt did 40 years ago”, he said, referring to the 1979 peace treaty between the two countries.

 

[Gramsci]

I expect turning down the peace deal and taking over the border at Rafah was for Egypt just going to far.

 

[Gramsci]

Lesson from this. Israel State isn't being picked on or selectively singled out- the "whataboutery" argument.

Its now alienating its allies and the mainstream press outlets.

None of this needed to happen.

Nor is it the fault of protestors. Don't think the anti semitism argument has much traction now.

 

[agricola]

I expect turning down the peace deal and taking over the border at Rafah was for Egypt just going to far.

The realization that no other countries interests, views, wishes or publicly expressed statements actually matter to the current Israeli government is going to doom it sooner rather than later.

Even our own shower are getting nothing except bad things in exchange, and as for Biden his chips are floating in piss.

 

[Raheem]

as for Biden his chips are floating in piss.

Would be had he not had them.

 

[Yossarian]

Psychotherapist Amani Al Derbi and her four children have been killed in an airstrike in Rafah - she was one of the women profiled in UN Women's "Voices From Gaza"

Her mission is to provide support to patients processing the traumas of living amid years of conflict. But she also carries the heavy burden of protecting her own family. “In every single moment, an eerie uncertainty surrounds us. I live in continuous fear of what could happen to my children and family”, she says. “My primary responsibility is to offer unwavering support, but the sheer gravity of this duty is crushing.”

 

[two sheds]

Have seen this reported in a couple of places: anyone know the background?

UN Halves Its Estimate of Women and Children Killed in Gaza

Between May 6 and May 8, the UN cut in half its estimates of the number of women and children killed in Gaza. The estimates were based on Hamas numbers and are a reminder that all fatality estimates …

www.cfr.org

 

[teqniq]

Have seen this reported in a couple of places: anyone know the background?

UN Halves Its Estimate of Women and Children Killed in Gaza

Between May 6 and May 8, the UN cut in half its estimates of the number of women and children killed in Gaza. The estimates were based on Hamas numbers and are a reminder that all fatality estimates …

www.cfr.org

I saw this earlier:

 

[two sheds]

Ta, is there a link to the analysis itself? I can't seem to find it by clicking through (this of course may be just incompetence on my part).

 

[Pickman's model]

Have seen this reported in a couple of places: anyone know the background?

UN Halves Its Estimate of Women and Children Killed in Gaza

Between May 6 and May 8, the UN cut in half its estimates of the number of women and children killed in Gaza. The estimates were based on Hamas numbers and are a reminder that all fatality estimates …

www.cfr.org

i thought the author of the piece you link to had an axe to grind and i would be less than wholly confident in his article

 

[two sheds]

Yes, heavily slanted language I thought.

I'd be interested to see whether UN did actually downgrade estimates though. Can't see the May 8th OHCA report that is being referred to.

 

[nino_savatte]

The Council On Foreign Relations is a US think tank. I remember hearing about them when I was younger. It claims to be "non-partisan" but then, so many think-tanks describe themselves in that way. However, it has close ties to prominent neocons and is considered to be part of the neocon movement. Its corporate members include Halliburton, Google, Deutsche Bank and Coca Cola. The CFR's current chairman founded the Carlyle Group.

Council on Foreign Relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[two sheds]

This is the UN May 6 release

Loading…

www.ohchr.org

They ["UN experts"] noted that women, girls and children overall are among those most exposed to danger in this conflict, and that as of 29 April 2024, of 34,488 Palestinians killed in Gaza, 14,500 have been children and 9,500 women. Another 77,643 have reportedly been injured, of which 75% are estimated to be female. Over 8,000 others are reported missing or under the rubble – and the experts noted that at least half of them can be assumed to be women and children. They also noted that an estimated 63 women, including 37 mothers are being killed daily and 17,000 Palestinian children are believed to have been orphaned since the war on Gaza began. [my italics]

and this is (presumably) the OCHA report on May 8 they're referring to:

Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel - reported humanitarian impact, 8 May 2024 at 15:00

www.unocha.org

This says "24,686 identified as of 30 April" out of "total of 34,844 reported" and "8,000 others are reported missing or under the rubble"

So the 4,959 women and 7,797 children are confirmed, and there are 18,000+ additional reported but not yet identified. Which suggests they estimate 4,500 women and 6,500 children still buried under the rubble or missing rather than the May 6 figures being inflated. This seems so basic an error that I must be making a mistake somewhere?

 

[agricola]

Psychotherapist Amani Al Derbi and her four children have been killed in an airstrike in Rafah - she was one of the women profiled in UN Women's "Voices From Gaza"

Her mission is to provide support to patients processing the traumas of living amid years of conflict. But she also carries the heavy burden of protecting her own family. “In every single moment, an eerie uncertainty surrounds us. I live in continuous fear of what could happen to my children and family”, she says. “My primary responsibility is to offer unwavering support, but the sheer gravity of this duty is crushing.”

View attachment 424277

This is in no way (at all) a criticism of the UN Women site or Amani al Derbi herself - but given that this is yet another example of the sort of people vital to keep a society in being having been apparently deliberately targeted, the likes of media outlets, NGOs, foreign governments and charities should really be looking to protect as far as possible the identites of these people.

The Lavender AI mentioned a few weeks ago would be far better placed to identify and track these people than it would be Hamas operatives, given that the latter are probably very paranoid about security.

 

[TopCat]

See Ukraine abstained. Would have thought they logically should support Palestine

Why? Zelensky made his feelings crystal clear.